Is AP about veg, or fish, or both?

floyd

this may be an old discussion, if so, please point me to it

What is your opinion on the following?

Is AP about growing veg and a few fish on the side are a nice bonus?

Is AP about growing fish and the abundance of veg is a nice bonus?

Is AP about growing your own supply or protein (fish) and veg?

I guess it largely depends on where you are and what your doing AP...for example you could be in the tropics on really sandy soil that has very little nutrient/water holding capacity etc, and AP is the best/easiest/whatever way to grow your own veg

or you already have a pumping OMG (organic market garden

and just want to grow your own fish...

etc etc

thoughts?

Floyd.

floyd

The reason I ask, is Ive worked with a guy on some AP stuff, and he taught me alot.

However it was his opinion that AP is just about growing good veg. he didnt like to harvest/kill his fish, and stocks at very low density....the fish are just to convert the fish food into plant food....
to me, thats just organic hydroponics with a natural middle man (gold fish in this case)

I disagree...

bunson

AP can be about whatever you want it to be about.

If your mentor wants an organic hydroponics system, that is their prerogative.

If you disagree and want high density a fish farm with a plant biased filtration system, that is your prerogative.

Some people just want a hobby which keeps them busy; I know at least one system where the owner grows only flowers and ornamental plants and has only goldfish, which is their prerogative.

We do what we do for our own reasons.

Scott

floyd

completely agree with that bunson....

when I said I disagreed with my mate, what I meant was that I disagree that AP is one thing or the other...

He seems to think that its fundamentally a veg production system and is physically and biologically not capable of producing sufficient fish mass to really consider it a viable fish production system, as opposed to simply a veg production system...

How many of you out there are feeding your family a weekly AP fish meal? Is it possible for a family of 4, living in a warm temperate - sub tropical climate (lets use sydney for example...) to have a weekly meal of their AP fish?

bunson

In order to get regular output from a system, it needs regular input.

If you had a system where your fish bred (or had regular access to cheap, correctly sized fish) and/or you could keep them all year-round, then I'd say it's possible to have regular meals of fish, fruit and vegetables from an AP system. However, in many places around the world, access to breeding fish is limited and if you wanted to keep a species of fish all year-round then you'd need to have extra components in the system such as heating or cooling and separated tanks for fish which eat other (usually smaller) fish.

Although I get an almost daily harvest of veges from my small system, because I have to buy fingerling trout at the start of winter and fingerling barramundi at the start of summer, without adding extra tanks, heating and/or cooling to my system, it is impossible for me to have a year-round weekly harvest of the fish species I have chosen to grow. The fish have to grow to plate-size first, and once the fish "season" has started, getting the right sized fish to replace any harvested fish is almost impossible (and if not impossible, very expensive!) My AP fish eating is seasonal; I get to eat trout in the latter part of winter and barramundi in the latter part of summer; outside these times, I have to buy them from the fishmonger or go fishing.

So in my case, no, it is not possible to have a weekly meal of AP fish, but this is not the case for everybody.

If I kept silver perch instead of trout and barramundi, and I had several more tanks in which to keep the fish, and access to a fingerling supply, in two years or so I could start taking regular harvests of fish from my AP system. If I lived 500km further south from where I am now, I could possibly keep trout all year-round without cooling systems, and if I had several tanks to keep separate the different sized fish, and access to a breeder to keep the stocked numbers up, then I could possibly have a weekly meal of AP fish. If I lived 1000km further north, I could possibly have barramundi or another warm water fish all year-round.

If you wanted to take 4 fish per week from a system, that's 208 fish per year. If you received these as fingerlings in say four batches spread evenly across the year and it took three months for the fish to grow out, you'd need a system capable of supporting at least 104 fish at one time i.e. the 52 new fingerlings and the 52 ready to start harvesting fish; that's a big system for a family of four, but not impossible. If it took six months for the fish to grow out, then you'd be host to 156 fish! It's too late here for me to even consider having slow growing species like silver perch which can take 18-24 months to grow out!

There is no magic answer here; every system is different because the people who own the systems are different, and they have different needs for their system and different limits within which they have to operate.

Scott

PLJ

Excellent response, Bunson. In fact, I have read many detailed and informative responses tonight that have emanated from your keyboard, all dated 13 May 12, and I marvel at your capacity to produce such a flow of quality posts across a wide range of threads. More power to you!

PJ

earthbound

I don't think Sydney is subtropical is it? Still as Bunson points out it is definately feasible.

Faye's system has been producing about 60-100 fish a season for almost 5 years now, thats up to 200 fish a year. Generally if the numbers are are only about 60-80 fish (due to fingerling shortages) then at harvest time those fish have been larger than if there were 100 in the tank.

Anyway, two crops a year, trout/barra say the equivalent of about 200 plate size fish in mass. Thats 4 fish, 50 times a year, a meal a week for a family of 4. Her freezer is testiment to the amount of fish you get, the last of last seasons Barra has only just been used, it's still stacked with trout, and this seasons Barra are due to be harvested now.

chillidude

+1 EB

Yep, I've got my last 6 trout from last season still in the freezer !

Charlie

For me - hobby and experiments

Mrs Charlie - veg

Kids - fish

Friends - jelousy

PLJ

earthbound wrote:

I don't think Sydney is subtropical is it?

When I studied horticulture at TAFE I was also surprised to learn that Sydney's climate is considered to be subtropical, having assumed it was much the same as Perth's. Unlike the Mediterranean type climate in and around Perth, however, with cool wet winters and hot dry summers, Sydney has smaller temperature extremes on both a daily and a seasonal basis. Sydney also receives reasonable summer rainfall which makes it appear much more lush in terms of its plant life.
Faye's fish production figures sound amazing and I aspire to get somewhere within coo-ee of her output down the track.

bunson

P.S. I don't freeze fish -- it's fresh or it's cat food! My stock is tempered at how many fresh fish I can eat when they are of sufficient size and weight. If you don't mind eating frozen fish, Faye and others have proven it's "easy" to have a weekly feed of AP fish.

Stuart Chignell

I think that people say that some is this or that are generally talk from their own bias rather than from any facts.

I believe that you have to consider what you are trying to achieve and what is appropriate for your area, situation, skills, resources, market, etc. etc. Pigeon holing AP into a small box doesn't really help.

We have recently been discussing some Isreali systems that have a ratio of 1m2 of FT to 1m2 of hydroponic growing area. The AP components of this integrated farming system produce around 1t of fish to 1t of plants. The ratios are so different from what we are used to being discussed on this forum because a large fraction of the nutrients are being used in flow to waste dirt production (irrigation to dirt grown crops). Obviously such a system works and is thought to be the best option for the operation in southern Isreal but many on this forum have said that such a system should not be described as AP at all because the water is not fully recirculated. Tailor Made's system in northern NSW has copped similar criticism.

Other system has been criticsed for their lack of fish focus. At the Australian aquaculture conference a few weeks ago Dr. Wilson Lennards systems were criticized for their low fish densities and lack of fish production which is no surprise given that it was a fish farming conference after all. He probably would have better luck at a hydro conference but that doesn't mean that his system isn't any good or that the philosophy behind its production priorities is flawed.

When it comes down to it I view names as tools used to describe and communicate what I am talking about rather than representing some philosophical dogma. If a particular system is the best for your situation and circumstance the only reason you should care about the name is when you are talking to someone else and expecting them to know what you are doing without explaining how the whole system works.

DrLuke

Well my goal is grow enough fish and veg to feed two adults. I see the fish part being more feasible since we only eat fish once a week. At 200 grams a serve. That's one-two 500-300grammers. That would be between 52-100 fish a year. If I can get 30 fish to size, twice a year I think that's close to my goal. And I know people are producing much more then that, e.g. See ebs comments on Faye. I would like it to be about veggies, but after 6 months I am yet to get anything I would consider a "harvest" but this is due to being an absolute gardening beginner.

Edit- I should say that I'm willing to freeze fish. This is how I get them now anyway.

faye

My freezer is my best friend and the barramundi and trout seem happy beside the rabbits and soon to be roosters

Just need a lamb and a pig that has not been deemed to be a pet by the rest of the family. :-x

Jackfrost

faye wrote:

My freezer is my best friend and the barramundi and trout seem happy beside the rabbits and soon to be roosters

Just need a lamb and a pig that has not been deemed to be a pet by the rest of the family. :-x

Good luck with the lamb, my suppliers down Waroona way have run dry

Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics