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PostPosted: May 12th, '18, 00:53 
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Hi everyone,

Total newbie here with an urgent question. Found an offer on ebay for used ibc's that have had a surfactant in them. I don't have any further details at the moment, but the price is so good (and he can even deliver them!), I have to quickly ask you knowledgeable lot. He said he could provide me with the MSDS, but I don't have it yet. I searched in the forum, and found that some of you used soap and such for cleaning the ibc's, but that this is also toxic to fish. My question (in case it wasn't obvious): Can I use them? Is it safe after a good rinse?

Thank you very much for any reply! Greatly appreciated!


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PostPosted: May 13th, '18, 00:09 
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A surfactant is likely just some type of detergent like for instance dish soap or an industrial cleaner. If you clean the IBC out really well and rinse it at least 3 times (more if you think it needs it) then I think it will probably by usable. You don't want any residue left in the container. Go ahead and check the MSDS, post what was in the container or post the MSDS if you have doubts. We can't always say for certain but we'll give it a shot.


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PostPosted: May 13th, '18, 19:39 
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Many thanks for your answer, scotty435, very appreciated.

The seller has not been back in touch unfortunately, all I know is 'surfactant' and 'soap-like material'. I will pester him again and hopefully he will respond. Fingers crossed!


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PostPosted: May 14th, '18, 05:53 
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Hi again,

I have heard back from the seller. This is what he says:

"Not able to send MSDS but will be supplied if purchased. The trade name of the material is Pennstat 598B." Is that of any use?

The IBC's have only had a single use, are dead cheap (£10 - £15) and he can deliver up to 12 at a time for a reasonable charge. And to top it all up, he says he has a regular supply! The only question remains: Are they usable and if yes... how many do I take? We live in the country and have the space... I am liking Tristin's system so far. Any recommendations?

Many thanks!


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PostPosted: May 14th, '18, 06:52 
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Tried to find something on that and couldn't find a thing :dontknow: . Pretty much impossible to tell you which way to go. That is a very good price and I'd be tempted to get one just to see the MSDS, hard to believe that he can't at least point you to the company that makes the stuff.


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PostPosted: May 14th, '18, 09:03 
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looks like this is the company that makes the stuff:

pennwhite
https://www.pennwhite.co.uk/index.php/Products/all/#anti-static-agents

here's a little more info:
https://www.pennwhite.co.uk/images/TechDataSheets/TDS-Pennstat-598B-06.pdf

I recommend contacting the manufacturer and asking for the MSDS and if they have any environmental information, such as its toxicity to aquatic life. I'd be very surprised if the manufacturer didn't at least give you a MSDS. Their website says they offer samples so, at a minimum, the MSDS should come with a sample.

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PostPosted: May 14th, '18, 14:12 
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+1 to that recommendation and good find on the search :headbang:


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PostPosted: May 14th, '18, 16:13 
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:notworthy: Wonderful! Thanks so much scott_dc and scotty435! I have sent an email to the company and might call if I don't get a quick answer. Will keep you posted on the results! :cheers:


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PostPosted: May 14th, '18, 18:54 
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Right, this is what I got from the company.


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PostPosted: May 14th, '18, 18:56 
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Sorry... pdf not allowed as attachment. Will tidy this up later. You can have a peek already if you like. Have to take my partner to the airport now. 

SAFETY DATA SHEET
PENNSTAT 598B
Section 1: Identification of the substance/mixture and of the company/undertaking 1.1. Product identifier
Page: 1 Compilation date: 20/12/2011 Revision date: 01/04/2018 Revision No: 3
Product name: Index number: Product code:
PENNSTAT 598B OPA2/F3/0044 PENNST598B
1.2. Relevant identified uses of the substance or mixture and uses advised against 1.3. Details of the supplier of the safety data sheet
Company name:
Tel: Fax: Email:
Pennwhite Ltd
Aston Way
Midpoint 18 Business Park Middlewich
Cheshire
United Kingdom
CW10 0HS
44 (0) 1606 734820
44 (0) 1606 837867 mark@pennwhite.co.uk
1.4. Emergency telephone number
Emergency tel: 44 (0) 1606 734820 (office hours only)
Section 2: Hazards identification
2.1. Classification of the substance or mixture
Classification under CLP: Most important adverse effects:
2.2. Label elements
Label elements: Hazard statements:
-: EUH208
Contains a mixture of: 5-chloro-2-methyl-2h-isothiazol-3-one [ec no 247-500-7] and 2- methyl-2h-isothiazol-3-one [ec no 220-239-6]. May produce an allergic reaction.
EUH208: Contains a mixture of: 5-chloro-2-methyl-2h-isothiazol-3-one [ec no 247-500-7] and 2-methyl-2h-isothiazol-3-one [ec no 220-239-6]. May produce an allergic reaction.
This product is not identified as a PBT/vPvB substance.
2.3. Other hazards
PBT:
[cont...]

SAFETY DATA SHEET
PENNSTAT 598B
Section 3: Composition/information on ingredients 3.2. Mixtures
Page: 2
Contains: A MIXTURE OF: 5-CHLORO-2-METHYL-2H-ISOTHIAZOL-3-ONE [EC NO 247-500-7] AND 2 -METHYL-2H-ISOTHIAZOL-3-ONE [EC NO 220-239-6]
Section 4: First aid measures
4.1. Description of first aid measures
Skin contact: Eye contact: Ingestion: Inhalation:
Wash immediately with plenty of soap and water.
Bathe the eye with running water for 15 minutes.
Wash out mouth with water.
Remove casualty from exposure ensuring one's own safety whilst doing so. Consult a doctor.
4.2. Most important symptoms and effects, both acute and delayed
Skin contact: Eye contact: Ingestion: Inhalation: Delayed / immediate effects:
There may be mild irritation at the site of contact. There may be irritation and redness.
There may be irritation of the throat.
No symptoms.
Delayed effects can be expected after long-term exposure.
4.3. Indication of any immediate medical attention and special treatment needed
Immediate / special treatment: Not applicable. Section 5: Fire-fighting measures
5.1. Extinguishing media
Extinguishing media: Suitable extinguishing media for the surrounding fire should be used. Use water spray to cool containers.
5.2. Special hazards arising from the substance or mixture
Exposure hazards: In combustion emits toxic fumes. 5.3. Advice for fire-fighters
Advice for fire-fighters: Wear self-contained breathing apparatus. Wear protective clothing to prevent contact with skin and eyes.
Section 6: Accidental release measures
6.1. Personal precautions, protective equipment and emergency procedures
Personal precautions: Refer to section 8 of SDS for personal protection details. Turn leaking containers leak-side up to prevent the escape of liquid. Mark out the contaminated area with signs and prevent
access to unauthorised personnel.
[cont...]

SAFETY DATA SHEET
PENNSTAT 598B
Page: 3
6.2. Environmental precautions
Environmental precautions: Do not discharge into drains or rivers. Contain the spillage using bunding. 6.3. Methods and material for containment and cleaning up
Clean-up procedures: Absorb into dry earth or sand. Transfer to a closable, labelled salvage container for disposal by an appropriate method.
6.4. Reference to other sections
Reference to other sections: Refer to section 8 of SDS. Section 7: Handling and storage
7.1. Precautions for safe handling
Handling requirements: Avoid direct contact with the substance. Avoid the formation or spread of mists in the air. 7.2. Conditions for safe storage, including any incompatibilities
Storage conditions: Store in a cool, well ventilated area. Keep container tightly closed. The floor of the storage room must be impermeable to prevent the escape of liquids.
7.3. Specific end use(s)
Specific end use(s): No data available. Section 8: Exposure controls/personal protection
8.1. Control parameters
Workplace exposure limits:
DNEL/PNEC Values
DNEL / PNEC
8.2. Exposure controls
Engineering measures: Respiratory protection: Hand protection: Eye protection: Skin protection:
No data available.
No data available.
The floor of the storage room must be impermeable to prevent the escape of liquids. Respiratory protection not required.
Protective gloves.
Safety glasses.
Protective clothing.
Section 9: Physical and chemical properties
9.1. Information on basic physical and chemical properties
State: Liquid Colour: Colourless
Odour: Barely perceptible odour Solubility in water: Miscible
Viscosity: Non-viscous Boiling point/range°C: 100
pH: Approx. 7
[cont...]

9.2. Other information
Other information: No data available. Section 10: Stability and reactivity
10.1. Reactivity
SAFETY DATA SHEET
PENNSTAT 598B
Page: 4
Reactivity: Stable under recommended transport or storage conditions. 10.2. Chemical stability
Chemical stability: Stable under normal conditions. 10.3. Possibility of hazardous reactions
Hazardous reactions:
10.4. Conditions to avoid
Conditions to avoid:
10.5. Incompatible materials
Materials to avoid:
Hazardous reactions will not occur under normal transport or storage conditions. Decomposition may occur on exposure to conditions or materials listed below.
Heat.
Strong oxidising agents. Strong acids.
10.6. Hazardous decomposition products
Haz. decomp. products: In combustion emits toxic fumes. Section 11: Toxicological information
11.1. Information on toxicological effects
Toxicity values: No data available. Symptoms / routes of exposure
Skin contact: Eye contact: Ingestion: Inhalation: Delayed / immediate effects:
There may be mild irritation at the site of contact. There may be irritation and redness.
There may be irritation of the throat.
No symptoms.
Delayed effects can be expected after long-term exposure.
Section 12: Ecological information 12.1. Toxicity
Ecotoxicity values: No data available. 12.2. Persistence and degradability
Persistence and degradability: Biodegradable. 12.3. Bioaccumulative potential
Bioaccumulative potential: No data available.
[cont...]

SAFETY DATA SHEET
PENNSTAT 598B
Page: 5
12.4. Mobility in soil
Mobility: Readily absorbed into soil. 12.5. Results of PBT and vPvB assessment
PBT identification: This product is not identified as a PBT/vPvB substance. 12.6. Other adverse effects
Other adverse effects: No data available. Section 13: Disposal considerations
13.1. Waste treatment methods
Disposal operations: Transfer to a suitable container and arrange for collection by specialised disposal company. NB: The user's attention is drawn to the possible existence of regional or national regulations
regarding disposal.
Section 14: Transport information
Transport class: This product does not require a classification for transport. Section 15: Regulatory information
15.1. Safety, health and environmental regulations/legislation specific for the substance or mixture
Specific regulations: Not applicable. 15.2. Chemical Safety Assessment
Chemical safety assessment: A chemical safety assessment has not been carried out for the substance or the mixture by the supplier.
Section 16: Other information Other information
Other information:
Phrases used in s.2 and s.3: Legal disclaimer:
according to Regulation (EC) No. 1907/2006 (REACH) with its amendment Regulation (EU) 2015/830
* indicates text in the SDS which has changed since the last revision.
EUH208: Contains <name of sensitising substance>. May produce an allergic reaction.
The above information is believed to be correct but does not purport to be all inclusive and shall be used only as a guide. This company shall not be held liable for any damage resulting from handling or from contact with the above product.
[final page]


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PostPosted: May 15th, '18, 01:50 
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Hmm, I can't say for sure but I probably wouldn't risk it without knowing more. I cut and pasted the chemical name into Google and came up with more MSDS sheets. One of them (DOW PRIMAL™ B-924 Emulsion) had this -

Quote:
Mixture of: 5-chloro-2-methyl-2H-isothiazol-3-one and 2-methyl-2H-isothiazol-3-one (3:1)
Acute inhalation toxicity
Brief exposure (minutes) to easily attainable concentrations may cause serious adverse
effects, even death. Mist may cause irritation of upper respiratory tract (nose and throat) and
lungs.
LC50, rat, 4 Hour, dust/mist, 0.33 mg/l


---------------
The LC50 is the concentration required to kill half the population in a certain length of time.

The other thing that jumps out is that this appears to be a contact allergen so you wouldn't want any on your skin or in your lungs.

It is water soluble and biodegradable so you could probably get the containers clean but it might not be worth it either in terms of hassle or safety. Maybe that's why they are cheap :dontknow: .

The MSDS sheets I looked at were all over the place in terms of information and cautions.


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PostPosted: May 15th, '18, 19:22 
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Thanks again, scotty435, that really doesn't sound too good, does it? Maybe, if I get one of them, cut it, clean it and let it sit in the sun for a while... then fill it with water and hope that algae will grow in it... and if it does, is it then safe? Since he got a steady supply of them, there really is no rush, I suppose, so better take time and test before buying in bulk...

Does algae growth always mean it is safe to use?


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PostPosted: May 15th, '18, 19:50 
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I'd be suiting up to cut/clean them, and I'd only be doing that if there wasn't an alternative supply.

He's undoubtedly being paid to take them away as rubbish, and is making a sly bit of coin both from you, and not paying to get rid of them/recycle them.

Any food manufacturing near you? They can be a good source, especially if it's had something simple like olive oil in it.


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PostPosted: May 16th, '18, 00:48 
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Thanks, SeanD, yes, you are right, he is a waste broker. I went ahead and bought one. He offered them on ebay for £10 starting price or £15 buy it now. I didn't think there were many interests, but the price did then go up to £17. Went down to get one, but we managed to squeeze two in my van, door open and everything. I was weary to drive like that, but he said it would be fine. And so far he is right. Plus, he offered them both for £20, so I basically got one for £3, as one should have cost £17. Anyhow, for that price I am willing to 'experiment'. He's also offered future ones with free delivery to a family members home. Not too bad. Especially if they turn out okay. I had also called the company 'Pennwhite' (see above) before, who claimed that this so called Pennstat 598B wasn't harmful to aquatic life. Well, we shall see.

Can I just double check that if algae grows in the tanks, they are fine to use? Is that correct? Or could they still kill fish despite the algae? What other ways of checking for non-toxicity are there? Thanks!


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PostPosted: May 16th, '18, 02:35 
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Once these are clean they should be fine. It would give me a bit of peace of mind that algae grows but I suspect that algae would grow in them without any cleaning so I wouldn't count on that as an indication of safety. One thing going for you on this is that the compound is biodegradable. You might be able to get the majority out with a mop and bucket then use paper towels, maybe wash it with some soapy water and finally go for the rinses.


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