Water Conditioners -help and warnings-

TCLynx

I've seen several threads again lately talking about water conditioners and their safety for food systems. I went searching for one of the threads that I recall had some links but I'm not finding it.

Anyway, I though we should get some of this info into the useful info section here to help the newbies and anyone here who has to use water conditioners.

By the way, chlorine treated water does not actually require chemical conditioning or agers if you are patient and can air it out (or age it) for a while. Chlorine will dissipate with air and time. If topping up a large well matured system, it often doesn't pose a problem so long as it is done slowly and sprayed in to let it outgas as much as possible.

However, many water utilities are switching to chloramine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloramine
This does not dissipate the same way chlorine does and therefore needs treatment to remove it. It can be filtered out if your system is small enough that a britta or other such similar tap water filter could handle the job but this usually isn't appropriate to larger systems. There are many tap water conditioners or agers out there but some of them are not appropriate for use in a food producing system. Please read labels.

It is at this point that some of the people who posted links about ways to remove or treat for chloramine, I would love for you to re-post those links and other info you have about it here!!!! I luckily have nice well water and do not need to worry about water conditioners or anything like that but I know many people could use some helpful tips.

RupertofOZ

Sodium Thiosulphate is commonly used in aquaria and RAS systems to dechlorinate tap water, and in swimming pools that have been over "chlorinated"....

Care should be taken as the double "sulpher" bond is unstable, and under certain conditions can seperate into a sulpher precipitate or even into sulpher dioxide... dose appropriately...

Treatment of tap water requires between 0.1 grams and 0.3 grams of pentahydrated (crystalline) sodium thiosulfate per 10 liters of water....

Food&Fish

We have cloramine and i just top up 50 litres at a time and dont add nothing so for me regular topups works
I still have to install that float valve then it will top up 1or 2 litres every cycle or when its needed

TCLynx

Here are some comments Steve made about Chlorine, Chloramine and treatment a while back

Quote:

Chlorine and Chloramines

Before adding bacteria or fish to any aquarium or system, all chlorine must be completely neutralized. Residual chlorine or chloramines will kill Fritz-Zyme bacteria and fish.

Most US cities now treat their drinking water with chloramines. Chloramines are more stable than chlorine. It is advisable to test for chlorine with an inexpensive test kit. If you are unsure whether your water has been treated with chloramine, test for ammonia after neutralizing the chlorine. You can also call your local water treatment facility.

The type of chloramines formed is dependent on pH. Most of it exists as either monochloramine (NH2Cl) or dichloramine (NHCl2). They are made by adding ammonia to chlorinated water. Commercial chlorine reducing chemicals, such as sodium thiosulfate (Na2S2O2) break the chlorine:ammonia bond. Chlorine (Cl) is reduced to harmless chloride (Cl- ) ion. Since dichloramine has two chlorine molecules, a double dose of a chlorine remover, such as sodium thiosulfate, is recommended.

Each molecule of chloramine that is reduced will produce one molecule of ammonia. If the chloramine concentration is 2 ppm then your aquarium or system will start out with 2 ppm of ammonia. Chlorine Remover will reduce up to 2 ppm of chlorine at recommended dosages. During the warmer months chlorine levels may exceed 2 ppm. A double dose would be required to effectively eliminate the excess chlorine.

http://backyardaquaponics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=131
This info is directly from another post here in Useful information.

Ok, I have found some of those other threads on the subject of Water Ager / Chlorine Neutralizer
http://backyardaquaponics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5894&p=196633&hilit=sodium+thiosulfate#p196633
http://backyardaquaponics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6047&p=200449&hilit=sodium+thiosulfate#p200449

Now I know some one posted a link about buying sodium thiosulfate but can't find it now.

It seems the ingredient in one of the not good for food systems water conditioners is

Quote:

EDTA TETRASODIUM SALT:
Not readily biodegradable. Harmful to aquatic organisms.
May cause long term adverse effects in the aquatic environment. [ORICA]
Toxicity to fish: LC50 (96h): >500 mg/l (Leuciscus idus)
Toxicity to daphnae (acute): EC50 (48h): >100 mg/l
Toxicity to algae EC50 (72h): 10-100 mg/l
COD Value: 570 mg O2/g
BOD5-Value: 20 mg O2/g
Toxicity to bacteria: 50 mg/l Warburg test

A few people have purchased products with this stuff in it and lately the recommendation as been to avoid those products.

TCLynx

Food&Fish wrote:

We have cloramine and i just top up 50 litres at a time and dont add nothing so for me regular topups works
I still have to install that float valve then it will top up 1or 2 litres every cycle or when its needed

that is good info to know there F&F. Chloramine treated water in small doses to a well established system is ok without special treatment.

I expect that starting up a brand new system, De-chlorinating the water first will help. And actually, de-chlorinating Chloramine treated water will leave you with some Ammonia in the system to jump start your fishless cycling :cheers:

Knew there had to be a silver lining somewhere :wink:

Food&Fish

TCLynx wrote:

Food&Fish wrote:

We have cloramine and i just top up 50 litres at a time and dont add nothing so for me regular topups works
I still have to install that float valve then it will top up 1or 2 litres every cycle or when its needed

that is good info to know there F&F. Chloramine treated water in small doses to a well established system is ok without special treatment.

I expect that starting up a brand new system, De-chlorinating the water first will help. And actually, de-chlorinating Chloramine treated water will leave you with some Ammonia in the system to jump start your fishless cycling :cheers:

Knew there had to be a silver lining somewhere :wink:

I havent treated i 18 months

jayendra

Can someone tell me if its okay to top up with tap water and 'BLAGNON - FRESH START' ??

Or should I just top up with tap water and not bother?

RupertofOZ

Just top up with tap water...

earthbound

Yep, dont ever bother if you have chlorine in the water, a small top up wont hurt..

Journeyman

I've mentioned it elsewhere but I added something between 100L and 150L to about 500L from a town water using both chlorine AND chloramines and killed 2 17 - 18cm goldfish in an hour.

I use Prime from Seachem now to treat tap water 1 x IBC at a time and system runs beautifully - even did a complete changeover not so long back and the 45 fish (SP and cats) missed a meal then were back to hitting the food almost as it hit the water.

I've been unable to find anything suggesting the chemicals in the Prime are harmful, to fish OR to humans.

RupertofOZ

Are you getting commission each time you mention Prime Journeyman...

There's been many post concerning this subject... and some that specifically address Prime...

You've chosen to use it... fine.... but it, or other similar products... should not be endorsed for usage....

jayendra

My system doesn't have any fish - so with everyones help I'm pretty certain its not going to harm the bacteria (900 litres rain water & 500 litres of town water)

Journeyman

RupertofOZ wrote:

Are you getting commission each time you mention Prime Journeyman...

There's been many post concerning this subject... and some that specifically address Prime...

You've chosen to use it... fine.... but it, or other similar products... should not be endorsed for usage....

No commission - I use it, it works. I fail to see any reason for the snide comment - I have mentioned it maybe 3 or 4 times and only ever where appropriate. (if you aren't being snide, learn to use smileys - they are so simple anyone can learn about them and they help let people know a comment is meant in jest - there's a big list of them over the left side when you post. Given your history of people taking umbrage, it may be your computer doesn't show them? :support:

)

The question was asked about conditioners - if I don't mention what I use I might as well not bother. Tap water, no other changes, killed my fish. My new lot of 45 fish, far more sensitive than goldfish according to what posters say, now have been through many additions of conditioned tap water since and they are thriving.

RupertofOZ

I generally do use "smileys".... just didn't think they were necessary... and really couldn't be bothered.... :wink:

For chlorinated water... water conditioners just aren't required.... bubbling the water for 24 hours will suffice...

Chloromined water is another subject... often discussed.... :wink:

The claims of Seachem Prime, and other "conditioners"... including reviews of their MSDS's have been posted previously.... :wink:

And I know of a person that has killed two lots of trout fingerlings.... after using "Prime".... :wink:

Each to their own.... :wink:

But the claims made by "Prime"... are generally nonsense... unproven... contradictory.... at times chemically unfounded... and bloody expensive... :wink:

P.S ...

There's nothing wrong with my computer.... and I've been around long enough to know pretty much know how the forum software works.... but thanks for caring.... :flower:

Jdejay02

I'm looking at the same situation here. I always treat for chloramines since the water companies around here sometimes slip it in. I am a firm believer in prime for this but it says right on the bottle not for human consumption. I've found that catalytic carbon in an RO system is best for chloramine removal. Personally I've seen prime save 6 breeder discus that were laying lifeless on the bottom of the tank. Prime will lock up ammonia for roughly 24 hours in an emergency. After that time if your filter does not remove it in time it will be released back into the system.

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