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PostPosted: Aug 6th, '16, 23:26 
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See Will wrote:
First of all we should forget any former design of my vertical Ideas. They are deleted and in the bin.

GH before growbed: not really ,
I have got some designs from a good mate in China and what they offer. the GH can always be widen but the length has to be rough 32m to match into the spot in focus direction the sun travels e-w direction.

The Greenhouse will be built to what we achieve: Just as rough indication.
My basic thoughts are now:

2x8 = 16 GB x 1300mm x 14000mm x 400 high (300mm water) = 87360ltr water
8 crayfish bassins 6000mm x 2000mm x 500mm water = each 6000 ltr = 48000 ltr water in total
8 fish tanks 6000 ltr = 48000 ltr They might have 5000 ltr as they wouldnt be full to the rim. = 40000 ltr in total.
And the entire fish stuff will be ending in an external shed proper fit around the setup and not anymore in the Greenhouse.
I will loose the cooling accu effect of the fishtanks but the greenhouse will be much lower and so better to cool down with cooling pads.

The GH is available for 14800mm or 15300mm width as multispan x 32000mm so all fits.

sorry for not beeing that clear in my description but the job project here on the ship is now coming to a bit more pressure and takes more time. 84 days to go and then I can concentrate fully on my farm project.

Attachment:
GH new design.JPG



Will


In this drawing.

How tall is the center post going up to the ridge of the roof?

Is this a "Bearing Wall" thru this section 32m's" going to the ridge line of the roof?

What Compass face are we looking at N, S, W, E???

Since you will be using Multispan GH's, what is the post spacing on the outer bearing walls, that will connect the GH's plus support the Gutter?

Forget about the A frame vertical growing contraption you have in mind for growing. Using the concrete flooring system so you can have all the Infrastructure of FT's and Filters under, won't work with your A frames.

The reason I showed you so that you would have a room spanning almost full width by full length without any columns to contend with.

KISS designed.


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PostPosted: Aug 7th, '16, 02:05 
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I am still open to the size of greenhouse.. the walls are usually depending of which polycarbon Sheets I want to use and in China they have almost every size, as my mate told me. Best available are around 600mm x 180mm/ 23" x 70" but we have a huge choice even wider.
So for the greenhouse we are not really relying on the standart, so we could think in any shape, Round, Multispan or even one single roof with a center post.. My pictures give are only examples what my mate sent me from his company in China, we are fully free mind when it comes to the greenhouse, almost any shape can be done.
I am not buying anything before the Frame and Design is not completely under the A Frame. (the A Frame and why is following below)
Lets put the Greenhouse behind and keep an eye on the AP setup.

I'll do from now on all in millimeters and add inches to it, as my jobs are mostly with British people I am quite used to yard,feet and inch.

I didn't understand your meaning about vertical and how you see it.

the A frame supplies every plant the same amount of sun is the reason. Shelf shape Frames need extra light, hence extra electric for grow lights and are less easy to operate.

If i am going for the A Frame statics first, as you said, I need to be clear what size of Throghs would be the best.
I think myself as wider as better. (honestly, I am not clear what size now)

Compass direction is east to west also for the A frame, we have almost continously by meaning winter and summer the sun above our heads and don't throw shades. Wouldn't it make sense to run the A-frame and GH in this East - West direction or am I totally wrong?

The bottom with all steps in it will be Concrete.

I'll bring in writing what I have in mind:

1. A Frame with Troghs:
The Throghs are 14000mm/551" long and xxx mm/" wide. (here I am struggling)

The Styrodur plates are available in 1250mm/49" x 1000mm/39"
but also in 600mm/23" x 1250mm/49", not to cut them to size is the measurements for the throughs. The rafts shall have an 'off the shelf' size.
So the throughs could be 600mm/49" or 1250mm/49" or even 2500mm/98" (plus a 4" gap for easy floating of the rafts) in width.
My thoughts are that 1250mm/49" x 1000mm/39" rafts are the most sensefull solution for small but tough Thai farmers.

If we could agree that 2500mm/99" (10mm/4" for free floating room for the rafts that they don't get caught while moving to the harvest end) throughs are makeable we would end up with a GH of 25000mm/985'width plus walkways and evtl side pipes for tall plants of in total 30000mm/1190".
Then we would be limited to a multispan in 3 segments. Or we have to design a factory hall like frame that can bear a 30000mm/ 1380"wide roof. (is makeable but is it worth the money?)

2. The support beams.
strong is reliable and because the bottom has levels they will differ in length.

3. The Bottom made from concrete, a good gentle plate 15" and every stand of the A frame attached to the floor and supported in a concrete foundation foot block like a 1500mm x 1500mm x 1000mm deep, 59"x 59" x 39"deep.

4. The set up.
the lowest through will be 800mm 32" above the ground level (the highest changes now as we don't need so great gaps in the height as in my former drawing, I recon we could think about 2800mm/110" at highest point, hence the GH will also be lower as before)

after the last through the 1st step will be a spot for the return tank size approx 300mm/12' under the ground level. So top of the return tank (e.g.) 39"high is 100mm/4"under the lowest through.

then the FT and Filter bottom level comes approx 1200mm/47" below the top of the return tank,
so the FT will be on stands 200mm 8" high for the piping below that keeps the Filters 8"lower as the FT.
The Filter will have an 8" trench underneath for the piping.

Last the Pump Sump will be approx (depend what Tank I can find for it lets say 1000mm/39" high) 47" deeper as the last Filter bottom, in a kid of Pump Cellar.

That are the 3 steps of the Concrete Floor.

Any size is continously subject to change if it benefits the system.

When the A frame is done (if possible this way) we can measure the Greenhouse.

I'll get this into a new drawing if all doubts cleared.

Last; This is all now made up for one A frame and the conclusion shall be ending when we found one solution to make this on 1800sqm/19300sqft and 6 A frames happen and (evtl) some small beds/Pipes for tall plants at the side walls.

I am here at the very beginning and the shedule is foreseen in about 1.5-2 years or even more.
Time doesn't matter as I have a good job, full orderbooks till 2019/2020.
But when we after all struggles and headbangings put up a complete concept, I guess this forum will be sure the only one that has ever done it. From first struggles to last bolt.

Cheers..O.P... and all others


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PostPosted: Sep 24th, '16, 03:36 
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WOW!!

Disclaimer - I have NO hardware yet - I am following a load of systems on here and I am still changing plans constantly!

I come from an engineering background (you mentioned ships and engine-rooms - I KNOW the basement!!)

1. You say you will power everything with solar - that mitigates some of the concern, but I STILL would push for the least energy consuming layout - least possible pump head necessary....

2. I don´t understand your explanation about A-frame and sun exposure to the plants - at least not - referrering to your 1st drawings, showing the DWC-troughts basically side-by-side, just not at the same level - WHY??
If they were overlapping - I would see the need for A-framing to let enough sun underneath the overlapping throught - no overlap, so WHY the complications from going high?
I understand the trend to A-frame and overlap to save surface meters when real-estate is SERIOUSLY expensive. You seem to have a good lot available - I predict you will spend a LOT of money going high for no real savings at the end.... - and not just from the real estate - every 1 centimeter you need to pump up your water will cost you EXTRA in the end!

3. I assume you are planning to use rafts in the DWCs. Any specific commercial units in mind or are you planning to do your own Styrofoam ones? I am asking because your latest DWC design is 1.3 (meters, I assume) wide... a very loose fit for a standard 4x8 foot board.
In your last drawing you have throughts side-by-side (basically going to 2.6 meters width) - HOW are you planning to reach the center if you have to do maintenance there?

4. Pluming!! I love it - but as I recently discovered, there is a LOT of energy to save with doing it right!
(BTW what you see in the engine room is NOT what you want on the AP system - at least not on the side where you PUMP! ...everything square and tight - NOT good for energy savings!!) - I have some charts you want to study - not sure if I downloaded them from this forum or whether I "found them" elsewhere! :twisted:

I will be following your build closely - I am "planning" (..more like dreaming) on a similar project on the other side of the ocean!!

Cheers,

thjakits :D

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PostPosted: Oct 30th, '17, 19:04 
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Just a bump.

Any progress See Will?


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PostPosted: Oct 8th, '18, 14:18 
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Hi all,

there have been lots of replies and all my drawings are now accepted as "newbie error"

I have built a backyard system for learning and after spending about 15000 EUR, making 4 upgrades I am now more or less on ground level, one pump system (with backup) 4000 red claw crayfish and 200 tilapia all sizes.

One thing I found out is. If you get good info like here and follow the tips you get then Aquaponics is actually no rocket science at all.
My system is producing, the water is balanced and the fish tastes as never had before.

when you are in Rome, do it as the Romans do...


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PostPosted: Oct 8th, '18, 20:38 
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Quote:
One thing I found out is. If you get good info like here and follow the tips you get then Aquaponics is actually no rocket science at all.
My system is producing, the water is balanced and the fish tastes as never had before.

Haha yes! Glad it going good. Of course we want pictures, lots of pictures!
Brian

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Specs: 2600 gallon (347.56cf) Masonry fish pond. 44cf GBs. 200 gal (26.7cf) ST. 15 gal (2cf) RFF. 50 gal (6.7cf) biofilter. Brook trout and Comets.


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PostPosted: Oct 8th, '18, 22:30 
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YES!!

pictures - plumbing - cray fish!!


Cheers,

thjakits

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PostPosted: Oct 10th, '18, 01:17 
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Yeah off cause, pictures we start with 2015 where all began.
My idea was making my rice farmer's daughter to a modern farmer.

Attachment:
File comment: The palm tree had to survive and my wife didn't believe in farming using fish and water..
16.jpg
16.jpg [ 180.95 KiB | Viewed 1448 times ]

Attachment:
File comment: the palm tree died by a lightning strike so the first rebuild was made and the entire family started to believe in AP.
60 (1).jpg
60 (1).jpg [ 138.85 KiB | Viewed 1448 times ]

Attachment:
File comment: 2016 a 4 filter system, ebb flood grow beds corrected the demand for more Nitrates. The crays started breeding as they were shaded.
27744896_1600049420113038_1375954802_o.jpg
27744896_1600049420113038_1375954802_o.jpg [ 135.31 KiB | Viewed 1448 times ]

Attachment:
File comment: a grow up station had to be built after the explosive expansion of our crays.
received_1600049446779702.jpg
received_1600049446779702.jpg [ 172.18 KiB | Viewed 1448 times ]


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PostPosted: Oct 10th, '18, 01:26 
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then the rice farmer's daughter (my Thai wife) became pretty much the boss as she said an engineer can't be a farmer.
Well well well, who built all this?

Attachment:
File comment: the entire system 2018...
IMG-20180708-WA0009.jpg
IMG-20180708-WA0009.jpg [ 86.42 KiB | Viewed 1448 times ]

Attachment:
File comment: a baby station was her next wish
IMG-20180715-WA0001.jpg
IMG-20180715-WA0001.jpg [ 65.75 KiB | Viewed 1448 times ]

Attachment:
File comment: 4 crayfish tanks instead of two, the BBQ parties had more guests to feed as the story spread..
received_1576798145771499.jpg
received_1576798145771499.jpg [ 91.66 KiB | Viewed 1448 times ]


I will promise better pictures when I am back home from this project in a wind farm in Germany.
Somehow the coin for our commercial plan has to be made.


Attachments:
File comment: crays in all sizes and at least twice a month we need to have a BBQ incl homegrown AP salads and other stuff.
received_1576798145771499.jpg
received_1576798145771499.jpg [ 91.66 KiB | Viewed 1448 times ]
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PostPosted: Oct 10th, '18, 01:42 
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Stand of today:

The waste management was implemented.. where to go with all the poo from the filters.
I tell you the poo is just a high grade fertilizer and made our garden to a jungle. Wedding couples come in front of the chicken flowers and the HUGE banana trees are checked for lucky lottery numbers by the neighbors..

Attachment:
File comment: rumble in the jungle.. the fertilizer for these huge banana trees and chicken flower vine is the poo from cray and tilapia..
received_1611753705609276.jpg
received_1611753705609276.jpg [ 142.8 KiB | Viewed 1448 times ]

Attachment:
File comment: busting with flowers. this vine has to be cut back once in 8 weeks.. good cray poo..
received_1611754925609154.jpg
received_1611754925609154.jpg [ 171.32 KiB | Viewed 1448 times ]

Attachment:
File comment: Lesson learned: Black tomatoes are only on the seed bag black..
received_1607743082677005.jpg
received_1607743082677005.jpg [ 120.86 KiB | Viewed 1448 times ]


and to final the dutch bucket system was a last wish from my wife.. Now the backyard is full to the limit.
Attachment:
File comment: dutch bucket .. the idea for the commercial system for 2020. Outside the greenhouse fruit trees and scrubs for a bigger variety on the market.
received_1600344236750223.jpg
received_1600344236750223.jpg [ 113.42 KiB | Viewed 1448 times ]


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PostPosted: Oct 10th, '18, 02:04 
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Thanks all backyard AP gardeners here...
The ideas have been changed from dream to reality by good lads here who guided us on the right way.

Now our system is running, we are growing a copious amount of veggies, learned a lot of lessons and feeling confident that we go now harder into our plan for the commercial system.

We know how to test our water and compare it by using our senses using the nose. We see the happiness of our fish by their feeding behavior. We have tried plants that were bitter and plants that are tasty.
We know what to do at power cuts. We have a backup pump and battery backups at our air pumps.
And most of all, it doesn't need to look nice, it has to be functional for our future plans.
This 15000 EUR approx is money well spent before we are going commercial in 2020.

Lots of plant spaces are now not used to fully grow out the veggies but more to try what can be grown in Thailand, what season is good for which plant and so on. Still is a lot learning and merciless book keeping involved.

We are getting there ;-) and off cause, we keep you all updated as many of you were part of it after our first posts here. Lots private contacts have been made and maintained..

Last but not least: If anyone wants some seeds from Thailand or Europe I am always willing to spend some time in return and send it to you.
I am also open for new veggies, berries and fruits that are here in Thailand not common and might create a market niece,, Mysore Raspberries are on the very top of my must have list..

Cheers all


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PostPosted: Oct 11th, '18, 14:21 
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The head height is completely changed from all my drawings before.
We have bought a big plot of 4 ha land for a good price and as most replies warned me for the energy costs I agreed after made my calculations that it would be just not worth it to go that high.

Also because we over sized the plan for the fish tanks we have made the conclusion to extend some of the grow beds to the outside as we have made successful trials to grow our own fish food.

Last is now the dutch buckets for fruit trees and bushes...
Here near Pattaya is a dealer who will sell us tote 1000ltr cubes for 20 USD a go.

The next trial is to buy 3 and try how they are working as dutch buckets for trees ;-)
if small buckets are working for tomatoes why a cubic-meter bucket filled with river stones should not work for mango trees and Co?

Worth a try isn't it? That's why we made such a big test system...

Attachment:
File comment: Dutch Bucket 1 cbm.. somebody tried this before? ;-)
Planned systems.png
Planned systems.png [ 97.53 KiB | Viewed 1416 times ]


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PostPosted: Oct 13th, '18, 20:46 
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Attachment:
File comment: pipes are prone to clogging, we need real grow beds for another reason. Chinese love crayfish and in Tanks you don't get market size,, in huge grow beds they will do...
36442162_1761750423942936_8428841389613121536_n.jpg
36442162_1761750423942936_8428841389613121536_n.jpg [ 97.82 KiB | Viewed 1376 times ]



Sorry about my English.
Its IBC not tote containers (believe it or not I call them since 5 years tote cubes even at work)
Since I have seen Cacao trees in the discovery garden Pattaya I would not taking any risk and grow them in blue 200 Ltr barrels.
We have some tough winds in the rain season and I guess a cubic-meter of gravel will hold any tree and not clogging my system.
For me its interesting is it worth to grow cacao trees, are they capable?
Pomegranate and Grapefruits show big advantages in Aquaponics, size, taste and quality are increasing.
Since the Chinese developed a sweety tooth there is a huge demand for Cacao plants created
(beside they buy up the world production of red claw crayfish)

The Pipes on my Photo will be broken down in my test system as we want now to try how red claw crayfish behave in Deepwater grow beds (55cm water depth) and how to contain them, not to float all the way through the filters and system. 50my Hydraulic filter mesh stainless will do...

but sure more lessons to be learned.. ;-)

Btw: First trials were promising. The crays did a good job and picked dead roots of the plants and stimulated the root building and grow times. So now it has to be tried in real grow beds.

Attachment:
File comment: the next step.. pipes gone grow beds in
grow bed 2.4 x 9m.png
grow bed 2.4 x 9m.png [ 24.02 KiB | Viewed 1376 times ]


the pipe in the center will be 3 parts/sizes in increment steps and to the bottom center of the grow beds they will have 5mm holes all along. I think it will create enough suction to get the solids (prevent root rot) out when we open the valve..
The fry will hide in there and we should also have a much better control of the amount and grow rate.
Last, this size grow bed will still not target a marketable size but it will show if the cray fish will go though the plants like an axe through a forest or if they really maintain the roots under the rafts.
How you think about that one?


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