Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

No need to water change.... just feed lightly... or not at all until it zeros out...

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Fresh By Nature - Distributor of Aquaponic Systems and Products in NSW
http://www.freshbynature.com.au

Cheers Rupe,

Skipping 2 days, feeding on the third. Guess a water top up still means system on 6ppt...

Went to take a photo of the gutter plumbing, sun not right, too flashy so got one of the end works. Yet to raise the pump, gutter beds only just pushed onto to 200l GB inlet, under any sort of duress it will release, not sure if I want the pump dangling mid water???

Also got the underwater camera out to try and get a photo of fish with what I believe secondary infection (Or maybe something completely different?). Any ideas guys, can you spot the red gill area on the bottom image to the left of the picture?

Couple of updated shots of the full system, including gutter beds & plumbing:

Question regarding aeration using air stones:

I recently bought some larger airstones that made a reverb sound from within the fiberglass tank, this caused my system to be significantly louder than usual. Trying two aerators, one running the larger stones, the other the smaller type, the larger held on the bottom of the tank and the resulting bubbles travelled through more of the water column (albiet the same size). The smaller type stones stay a lot higher in the column due to weight but they definately looks like it's stirring up far less surface area.

My neighbour offered me feedback on the system and mentioned it was too loud at night. I removed the reverbing large stones and placed a T peice gang valve (T peice with adjustable dial) connecting one to each line (2 outlet air pumps). Larger air stones were placed on each end to hold position on the bottom of the tank and the dial was then loosened to release bubbles directly from the vacant ends on each T peice. If a smaller stone was placed on the other end of the T peice and the dial adjusted half of each stone would emit small bubbles and larger 2mm - 10mm random szied bubbles would emit from the dial opening. While air failed to exit out of the air stones with the valve fully opened the vacant ends created enough disturbance to travel up through the water column with gusto. These bubbles were/are a lot larger than what the smaller stones produce, but aeration seems superior (from the look of things anyway) with a vacant end.

Plus side is a lot quiter either way (Large stone, gang valve T peice with or sans small stone) and the fish are enjoying the disturbance coming from lower in the water column. Without purchasing some sort of mega air disc, and comparing the .5mm smaller bubbles with the, say 2mm - 10mm larger bubbles, just what do you think the system is now missing out on? (Still running both aerators at the moment to be safe).

One fishy off feed, isolating himself bottom of tank... Another looking bloated up the top, cant dive with signs of fin rot (Seems happy enough).

Bottom dweller got the hospital tank treatment, returned to FT looking worse for wear. Top swimmer couldnt be caught in the dark, hope they both pull through...

Reasons, well seems to have been a pH drop of about 4 points over the past two days.

Nitrate has risen slightly, all others 0.

Could be your system is starting to re-cylcle due to rising temps, hence your nitrate lift. I would remove infected fish if salt bath hasnt improved, may be too late for them.

_________________
~2010/2011~
~2012/2013~
~My Yabbie Hunting Adventures~

Took your advice Charlie, glad I did too...

Well both sick fish died, im starting to think my hospital tank is more like a cemetry tank. Bloated fish eventually turned upside down and couldnt get air, flared gills and the like. Other fish broke out in a very patchy white and red styled rash and had no fin rot (Other did). Good news is the rest have stopped flashing so will bring tank back to 1ppt on the weekend (More like 3ppt now due to tank being topped up).

Algae growth is present on tank walls but its colour only, no residual growth or extruding feature. Lovage, Salad Burnett, Caraway and Pineapple Sage hating the salt, along with the strawberries ofcourse and a few other plants. Removed Vitamin Green plant (Infested with Aphids) and a lettuce or two for the table, English Spinach bolting along with Red Cardinal Silverbeet. Plant growth seems to have ebbed and flowed for the last 2 weeks although gutter planting system seems to be slowly encouraging the trial lettuce to grow.

Overall, 26 SP left and four pushing up Daisy.

Figured I have been loving my fish to death so apart from feed I have left them well alone. Canberra has had lots of rain and second coldest December morning start on record, temps have been done across the board. Still havent managed to get another thermometer to monitor water temp, but with high teens and low 20's im guessing water temp is probably around 16/17 degrees. So much rain, exposed system meaning lots of fresh water through it which kept PH rather high.

Saves on FT top ups but at the same time I get a little worried nobody is getting what they need or deserve. Gave the FT tank a huge scrub out as algae build up was getting a little out of control, water went horrible and didnt settle over two days so did a 50% water change and sucked debris out of the tank when draining. My fish are all looking good, eating a lot and growing bit by bit (Slowly). I am guessing with all the rain causing small overflows and my constant top ups before the rain and the recent water change I would be at 1ppt or even 0ppt?

Plants have suffered from salt burn so most were taken out and new lettuce added. Plants like the Red Rib Chickory had very extensive root zones and digging out the bedded roots combined with the Canna Bio Flores test and algae gunk caused mayhem in the FT. The recent outside temps causing water temps to drop and the fact my system was salted highly before are not helping my plants. Nitrates and Nitrites non existant and ammonia mostly 0 (Even with increased feed). Dropping pH down to 7 slowly, easier to monitor and looking for some sort of increased production (Fish or plants).

With all those plants being taken out, media disturbed, water changes and the like are the bacteria still active in my beds or am I waiting for my system to cycle all over again?

Comments appreciated...

Times have been a little tough weather wise, again much seems against me in its current location. WIth some late spikes in weather plants seemed to have picked up, especially after I noticed two beds flood and drain had ceased (Blocked pipes). Had a bit of a distaster as was expected by a few members, my top gutter system got clogged with roots and the day before I was going to pull it out a massive storm came, unbalanced flow and the tank came close to pumping dry. By the time I got home I would say I had lost about 500l of water and with three beds pumping on close to the same cycle water level was critical.

One fish was dead, another one followed suit an hour or two later and some arent looking well at all (Yes, I have learned my lesson). I am guessing I will have a few more deaths due to stress and suprise suprise flashing has returned and white spot visible. Salted tanks to 6ppt and am hoping for the best. Its been hard not trying to over think things as I would say the fish obviously stressed out due to water loss and any other effects will arrive hand in hand. If calculations are correct thats 7 down, 23 remaining and a couple borderline (Nope, the funeral tank is not coming into play).

Couple more fish dead, urgh this is really getting me down...

No photos but I would say its White spot back with avengance. Mottled skin with patchy skin breaks and sores and this time some fish have had cloudy eyes. Two have been impossibel to catch, one died overnight and the other I put out of its (Or my) misery today. Added 6ppt again, last 6ppt was 26th December so I would say with top ups I must be close to 9ppt if not more.

I couldnt do a water change if I wanted to, water tanks empty and bugger all rain lately, strange as month ago I was willing it away. Im not sure what to do, the whole system is so full of salt, readings are normal (0, 0, 0, 20) and water temps 20 degrees to 30 on hot days. I have discountinued my Canna tests & I have pulled my gutter plants and isolated it from the main system, I fear the lack of complete water turnover in the gutters may be partially to blame. Some presence of algae in main gutter, under media looks fairly brown and cloudy however it does not smell.

Backup bilge spraying over the surface 24/7, tank scrubbed, water clearing...

Anyone have any detailed help?

Dam you cant catch a break, such a shame you are loosing fish parroh. I have spent some time staring at your system and love its sleek and modern design. Im no guru when it comes to sick fish mate so Im not the best of help sorry, other than the usual salting to mitigate disease. Not sure of your salting technique but maybe try something like :-
Make a floating basket, I made one using a plastic washing basket and then cut some pool noodles up and cable tied them to the basket so it will float (make sure you cable tie it down far enough so the fish cant jump out, then catch the infected fish and put them in the basket and it can just float around in your FT, put a few air stones in this so they get heaps of air.
You can then use this to pull them all out in one go and drop into your hospital tank of 12ppt for half hour or so. Do this every week till they show improvement. By using the basket method you are minimising the stress on them instead of trying to catch them all the time which would in turn not be helping their health or recovery.

With your gutters maybe larger pipes to increase flow would help and Im sure I read somewhere that OBO had issues with algae growing more so in black pipes.

Hope this helps mate and good luck.

_________________
~2010/2011~
~2012/2013~
~My Yabbie Hunting Adventures~

Thanks Charlie for your words...

Thought things were on the mend but well, maybe I spoke too soon :/

I returned from holiday, everything looked ok. Turned back on the gutter system and today more fish are looking worse for wear. I would say 95% of the remaining 20 or so have large white spots, slime coat issues and red fleshy looking wounds. Im in real strife and pissed off at the same time, looking back at data recorded it pretty much starts when the gutter system was installed, only think I can think of is the gutters just arent able to turn over enough water (In their current configuration), have some sort of stagnant pooling and fungal growth/bacteria issues.

I will commence hospital tank daily 100l 1hr 12ppt treatment using 3 washing baskets when returned to the main tank to distribute fish away from mass amounts of contact with each other, disconnect gutter system to redesign with larger pipes for greater flow and monitor results. Will also get my water tested at local aquarium shop, buy a salinity tester to monitor salt levels and if all else fails pull the whole system apart and clean appropriately.

I have heard the treatment for whitespot, if sought from an aquarium shop, renders fish unedible (Fair enough, I could live with that). Does anyone know if the carry on effects of the treatment get ingested by plants and passed on via human consumption?

Paffoh, did you hand paint the gutters... and/or the ends???

_________________
>

Fresh By Nature - Distributor of Aquaponic Systems and Products in NSW
http://www.freshbynature.com.au

Yes, they were handpainted externally using Solarguard Low Sheen.

Did some research at the time regarding safety using their product, indicated appropriate for catching rain water suitable for drinking. Saying that nominal amounts were used internall (Ie: None that I can think of). Some PVC glue suitable for drinking water was also used, more liberally to seal and some slicon to tidy up any leaks. I had thought of irritation due to the stain on the fence tops where the gutters are mounted but due to gaps between fence and gutter assumed wouldnt be an issue.

I dont think the neighbour sprays her garden but what I think is a Nectarine (Or Peach tree) is starting to hang over the fence above the gutters. Not sure if that would have any impact on fish health, but anything is possible.

Edit : Oh dear, just found an additional Material Data Safety Sheet that has a risk R52/53 » Harmful to aquatic organisms may cause long- term adverse effects in the aquatic environment. As you can see my entire system is painted externally with the product but with surface area contact dispersing amounts I didnt figure too much of a problem would be had. Perhaps the gutter system bumped up that ratio by another 50% meaning lips of gutters and backing causing additional run in from weather.

Only one thing to do, put plan A on the backburner and remove as much paint as possible on lips and edges around the system and look for some other way of making it look pretty. Have a read of this, interesting stuff as I had read it before using it, however now some of the symptoms seem a lot closer to home as while I figured the data sheet was more current in liquid unused form seems I may have skipped an important bit:

http://www.wattyl.com.au/library/MSDS/S ... 0Oct08.pdf

TOXICITY IRRITATION
Oral (Rat) LD50: >20000 mg/kg * Skin (human): 0.3 mg /3D (int)- Mild *
Oral (Mouse) LD50: >10000 mg/kg *
» The material may produce moderate eye irritation leading to inflammation. Repeated or prolonged exposure to irritants may produce conjunctivitis.
The material may cause skin irritation after prolonged or repeated exposure and may produce a contact dermatitis (nonallergic). This form of
dermatitis is often characterised by skin redness (erythema) and swelling epidermis.
For titanium dioxide:
Humans can be exposed to titanium dioxide via inhalation, ingestion or dermal contact. In human lungs, the clearance kinetics of titanium dioxide is
poorly characterized relative to that in experimental animals.
* IUCLID
2,2,4-TRIMETHYL-1,3-PENTANEDIOLMONOISOBUTYRATE:
» unless otherwise specified data extracted from RTECS - Register of Toxic Effects of Chemical Substances.
TOXICITY IRRITATION
Oral (rat) LD50: 3200 mg/kg Skin - Slight Irritant *
Oral (rat) LD50: 3200 mg/kg *** Skin (rabbit): Mild ***
Dermal (rabbit) LD50: >16 ml/kg * Eyes - Moderate Irritant *
Dermal (g.pig) LD50: >16 ml/kg ***
Inhalation (rat) LC50: >3.55 mg/l/6h
Inhalation (rat) LC50: 1600 mg/kg ***
Oral (Mouse) LD50: 3200 mg/kg
Dermal (Guinea) pig: LD50>20 ml/kg
» The material may be irritating to the eye, with prolonged contact causing inflammation. Repeated or prolonged exposure to irritants may produce
conjunctivitis.
The material may cause skin irritation after prolonged or repeated exposure and may produce a contact dermatitis (nonallergic). This form of
dermatitis is often characterised by skin redness (erythema) and swelling epidermis.
Not a skin sensitiser (guinea pig, Magnusson-Kligman) ***
Ames Test: negative ***
Micronucleus, mouse: negative ***
Not mutagenic ***
No effects on fertility or foetal development seen in the rat ***
* [SWIFT]
** [Eastman]
*** [Perstop]
NONYLPHENOL, ETHOXYLATED:
» unless otherwise specified data extracted from RTECS - Register of Toxic Effects of Chemical Substances.
TOXICITY IRRITATION
Oral (rat) LD50: >2000 mg/kg Skin (human): 15 mg/3D Mild
Dermal (rabbit) LD50: 2830 ul/kg Skin (rabbit): 500 mg Mild
Eye (rabbit): 5 mg SEVERE
» The material may produce severe irritation to the eye causing pronounced inflammation. Repeated or prolonged exposure to irritants may produce
conjunctivitis.
The material may cause skin irritation after prolonged or repeated exposure and may produce a contact dermatitis (nonallergic). This form of
dermatitis is often characterised by skin redness (erythema) and swelling epidermis.
WATER:
» No significant acute toxicological data identified in literature search.

Sorry to hear about the fish issues.

Over here in the US we can buy gutters and such in different colors. Is that a possibility for you?

There are gutter companies that will come out with a truck and equipment with large rolls of flat stock (sheet metal on a roll) and custom make them right on the spot.

Hope getting the gutters fixed sorts out the issue.

Thanks for posting. That's how we learn from others. The good and the bad.

_________________
Mr Bill

The difference between a dream and a goal is a plan. You just have to be able to modify the plan.

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