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PostPosted: Feb 19th, '12, 14:05 
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BullwinkleII wrote:
Another possible cause for you fish deaths could be whatever sprays and additives were on the seedlings.

You probably did wash them, but just in case you hadn't thought of it, it's always a good idea to rinse new seedlings really well. Everything and anything could have been sprayed on them.


I did wash them to remove soil, but not 100%.
Before setting up the two new grow beds, I had four smaller grow trays where I was experimenting with growing seedlings in clay ball media. For most of seedlings, I did not remove soil and water from tray drained to pond. This went on for about six weeks and no fish died from this experiment.
Compared to this case, in the current grow beds, all new seedlings had gone through removal of soil. So, I tend not to attribute this factor as the main cause of fish death, but it is something that I should consider.

Sejin

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PostPosted: Feb 19th, '12, 14:13 
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BullwinkleII wrote:
What about making an air lift to bring water up from your fish tank. That way the force isn't too strong for your duckweed, but it gets the ammonia it depends on to grow.

Duckweed doesn't eat nitrates like other plants. It eats ammonia which it needs to get directly from the fish before the grow beds and the nitrifying bacteria have had a chance to convert it.

I am not clear about what you suggest.
Adding water to the duckweed tray will reqire an outlet and speed control.
Eventually, the tray will be linked to the system, but at the moment, I add pond water and some fish poo occasiaonly. There are occasiaonal water changes with pond water too.

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PostPosted: Feb 19th, '12, 14:15 
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BullwinkleII wrote:
I just tested for ammonia and get a zero reading.



Yours may be treated different then, testing up here in Port Pirie gave me 1ppm
Only tested this due to a chat with the owner of the fodder shop as he sells fish as well, might be our water coming from the Murray then :?

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PostPosted: Feb 19th, '12, 14:30 
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BullwinkleII wrote:
Do the silver perch eat rice?


One thing that I noticed about silver perch behaviour recently is that, while they stayed at the bottom of pond for the first three weeks, now they began to come up.

It was difficult to see what they were eating because they do not mix with large gold fishes and stay at the bottom of pond, and gold fish dominate food given.
Not sure whether they eat rice. Gold fish eat rice. Sometimes as they go down, sometimes overnight.

Silver perch still never come to the surface of water, but they occcasionally come up to 20 cm below surface. I hope this is not due to lack of oxigen, but I am now having more use of airation.

As for fish feed, I should take another entry and a longer time to explain what I do, but I feed all kinds of things.
I have not figured out how many grams I feed.

Sejin

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- first system set up in Feb 2012, expansion in April

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PostPosted: Feb 19th, '12, 14:33 
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wolvenstine wrote:
Yours may be treated different then, testing up here in Port Pirie gave me 1ppm
Only tested this due to a chat with the owner of the fodder shop as he sells fish as well, might be our water coming from the Murray then :?


That's because we have chloramine here in Pirie, which is chlorine+ammonia.. From what I could tell after reading 50 pages of sa-govt beaurocratic bull$4!7 the other day, we have chloramine here as does most of mid north SA which feeds off the Morgan water treatment plant from the Murray, and Adelaide doesn't..

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PostPosted: Feb 19th, '12, 14:45 
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Seriously, this cant be healthy.
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Sejin wrote:
BullwinkleII wrote:
What about making an air lift to bring water up from your fish tank. That way the force isn't too strong for your duckweed, but it gets the ammonia it depends on to grow.

Duckweed doesn't eat nitrates like other plants. It eats ammonia which it needs to get directly from the fish before the grow beds and the nitrifying bacteria have had a chance to convert it.

I am not clear about what you suggest.
Adding water to the duckweed tray will reqire an outlet and speed control.
Eventually, the tray will be linked to the system, but at the moment, I add pond water and some fish poo occasiaonly. There are occasiaonal water changes with pond water too.


I was thinking as a temporary duckweed system, you could add water to your tray with a tube rising from the bottom of your fish pond, and putting your air stone in the bottom. This would create aan air lift that would bring water up to your tray. Then just place the try on the side of the tank so that it spills back into the tank (perhaps put something under one side so it tilts a bit), or add a no holes water bridge so that it overflows back to your fish pond.

Another thing you could do is just drop some fish food into the duckweed pond. As it breaks down it will go through an ammonia stage. As long as their is some air flow, the tank shouldn't get rancid.

Speed control shouldn't be an issue because it's very easy to make an air lift that doesn't work very well :)

Just to recap, for duckweed you need ...

-Some flow, but not enough to churn the duckweed. Duckweed likes to sit calmly on the surface, because you need oxygenated water. So you either need the water to be changing constantly, or you need to stir the water gently.
-Sunlight
-Ammonia, not processed nitrites.

It tends to grow well when there is far too much nutrient in a natural waterway. It can choke rivers that have too much farm runoff.

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PostPosted: Feb 19th, '12, 14:46 
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Seriously, this cant be healthy.
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Sorry I missed the bit about the fish poo.

That should do it with some air running.

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PostPosted: Feb 19th, '12, 16:34 
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Try the having just a tiny nit of air really tiny tiny amount of air..

The water does not need to boil.... boiling is Bad...

Juergen

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PostPosted: Feb 20th, '12, 08:22 
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5 more silver perch died overnight.:shock:
They all look healthy.
Attachment:
IMG_1803.JPG
IMG_1803.JPG [ 63.57 KiB | Viewed 954 times ]
That is a total of 9 out of 30.
30% death since I started my first AP set up.
I guess no general will accept 30% death. (even though at the last phase of the Pacific War, the Japanese generals thought even 100% was acceptable rather than defeat. Spirit is undefeated. Japanese spirit forever! :naughty: No more such generals in Japan today.)

My mind is in a scientific mode, of finding an explanation and understanding fish and plant biology. :think:

- They were fine in pond when water was circulated through pond filter alone.
- Death occured since water is circulating through grow beds.
- None of gold fishes were affected.

There will be no additional silver perches until the cause is found, or the system stablises.

Water test results show change since the set up (rise in all components, but not excessive), but little change over one week.

Factors to consider:
- Gravel and hydroton added
- plants added
- Seasol added
- fish food varieties
- water added: rainwater and tap water.

Any scientific Sherlock Holmes?
--------

On Silver Perch Health
Queensland Government Primary Industires and Fisheries
http://www.dpi.qld.gov.au/28_13349.htm
Quote:
Although silver perch are able to tolerate poor water quality conditions, maintenance of water quality is necessary to achieve optimum growth rates. Dissolved oxygen (DO) levels of 4 milligrams per litre or greater encourage maximum growth and survival. Supplementary aeration (for example paddlewheel) is required at densities greater than 5000 fish per hectare and is essential for commercial production.

The excreted metabolic waste ammonia NH3 will limit production at levels greater than 0.1 milligrams per litre and becomes lethal at 0.6 milligrams per litre. Careful management of stocking densities and feed rates will prevent excessive NH3 concentrations.

Silver perch are able to tolerate pH levels between 6 and 10, with the desired range between 6.5 and 9.
Salinity levels of 5 grams per litre sodium chloride are acceptable for long-term exposure and can be used to treat ectoparasite and fungal diseases. Properly installed netting or placing nylon scarewire across the pond may prevent predation by birds.

Silver perch are omnivores, consuming zooplankton, small crustaceans, aquatic insects, molluscs, algae and plant material. Juvenile silver perch preferentially feed on crustaceans and zooplankton with the proportion of algae and plant material increasing with age. Artificial diets are readily accepted at both fingerling and adult stage. These are generally fed in pellet form. Pellet size varies with the size of the animal. The optimum dietary protein level is between 32% and 36%. Along with protein silver perch also require an artificial diet with sufficient lipids, carbohydrates, vitamins and minerals for energy and growth. The food conversion ratio (FCR) ranges from 1.2:1 for fingerlings to 1.5:1 for growout. That is, it takes 1.5 kilograms of food to produce 1 kilogram wet weight of fish.

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My system:
- 5000L fish pond, 4 x 350L grow beds, 130 gold fish
- first system set up in Feb 2012, expansion in April

History to April 2, 2012:
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=11530&start=240#p322974


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PostPosted: Feb 20th, '12, 10:31 
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Did you QT the silver Perch or did you drop them straight in..

I actually Like MH's system of treating new fingerling's for a new/existing fish system..
- for easy of handling.. Have them in a Floating Basket, from which they can't escape..
- At Least once a Week Heavily salt bath them..[10% Salt]
-- In a separate container with a Fresh Salt solution soak/place the Basket with the fish in for about an hour..[With air added..]



I'm afraid to say, but I think you will end up with about 90-100% mortality as I don't think you followed any form of QT.. I don't know if you added the fish to the current system or What..
- If you added them to the current pond with the goldfish..[Which are a fairly hardy fish] I think you will lose the lot..

Read this..
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11321


Best of Luck with your fish..


Juergen

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PostPosted: Feb 20th, '12, 11:16 
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HI J,

Fish was there (in fish pond) before the AP system.
Gold fish were there since July last year.
Silver perch added about three weeks before link the pond to the growbeds.
They were doing fine with goldfish. No death.
Silver perch death started from the fifth day of the AP setup.

Sejin

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My system:
- 5000L fish pond, 4 x 350L grow beds, 130 gold fish
- first system set up in Feb 2012, expansion in April

History to April 2, 2012:
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=11530&start=240#p322974


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PostPosted: Feb 20th, '12, 13:55 
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Seriously, this cant be healthy.
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Can you post of your water test results.

Perhaps they will tell a story.

Sometimes data over time can give a hint.

I found what was killing my fish only because I kept good records, and graphed rain events, fish deaths, and water test results. It turned out there was a very strong correlation between fish deaths and rain events. # days after the rain, I'd see deaths. It turned out to be a bush that the wan was splashing off. The bush was very toxic to fish.

I dont think that's the issue at your house, but adding all those things like topup water and temperatures and when new plants go into the system can reveal a pattern over time.

I'm not suggesting you log all those things all the time, but if your fish are dying, it might be worth it.

You might never discover the reason, because we tend to get very careful about everything after fish deaths.

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PostPosted: Feb 20th, '12, 18:33 
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BullwinkleII wrote:
Can you post of your water test results.
Perhaps they will tell a story.


Basically, no change for one week even though I had added rainwater once and tap water next time within that one week:

PH 7.8 (the colour also looks like 7.4 in the high scale.)
Ammonia 0.25
Nitrite 0.25
Nitrate 5

Before the hook up to grow beds, the pond water with both goldfish and silver perch had shown a result of 7, 0, 0, and 0 for many weeks.

Sejin

PS: four more silver perch found dead today.
I will just have to wait and see.
It will not be difficult to add more silver perch fries once death stops.
This happened to goldfish about four months ago.

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- first system set up in Feb 2012, expansion in April

History to April 2, 2012:
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=11530&start=240#p322974


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PostPosted: Feb 20th, '12, 23:40 
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My silver perch started getting closer to the surface a few days before they died (not at the surface, but no longer hugging the bottom like they usually do). I think their swim bladders often get messed up regardless of what their ailment is, and this seems to bring them closer to the surface. If you look at sick fish closely, you can see they also spend more time finning to keep themselves upright. I think when their swim bladders get messed up, they struggle to maintain equilibrium and altitude. Like an inner ear infection in people.

I know this doesnt help. :(

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PostPosted: Feb 22nd, '12, 08:36 
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Two more silver perch found dead yesterday morning, and another two this morning.
I am loosing count of silver perch. I think it must be around 15 death out of 30.
What to do?
Of course, the primary issue is how to reduce fish death. No change in water test results. So, not sure yet.

Another secondary issue (?) is what to do with dead fish.
Probably, like most people, I used to bury dead fish in ground, but it occurred to me to put them in a productive use. Put them in duckweed tray to produce ammonia.
The duckweed tray has been doing well since I used one stream of aerator.
Air stream was still strong enough to look like boiling water even after being reduced by putting the airstone in a bottle and pressed by stone, and the bottle height raised to reduce bubbles. However, the boiling area was reduced to the immediate vicinity of the bottle, thus making other areas fairly quite with slight waves.
Attachment:
IMG_1808.JPG
IMG_1808.JPG [ 88.11 KiB | Viewed 895 times ]

I began adding dead silver perch fingerings since three days ago.Some dead fish are floating and some are sunken.
Attachment:
IMG_1822.JPG
IMG_1822.JPG [ 152.09 KiB | Viewed 895 times ]

I have to wait and see, but it appears that duckweed growth rate has increased, partly due to the aerator set up, but perhaps partly also due to dead fish.

It also occurred to me that if silver perch fingerings death is partly due to a high level of ammonia (0.25 which is not exessive, but a rise from 0 before hooking pond up with growbeds, so PH rise is likely more important), then the presence of duckweed in pond will reduce the ammonia level, and I should try to grow duckweed in the pond. I have seen Francois in South Africa using fish tank as a duckweed growbed. However, in my case, the duckweed that I place in pond had usually disappeared in after several days. It appears that gold fish eat duckweed.
What is puzzling to me is how duckweed grows in fish pond if it is food for fish.
The only explanation is that duckweed grows faster than being consumed by fish.
This has not happened in my pond. But I thought I would give another try.
I blocked the end section of pond with floating foam and added a good amount of duckweed.
Attachment:
IMG_1816.JPG
IMG_1816.JPG [ 82.4 KiB | Viewed 895 times ]

I suppose it is an issue of balance that I have not been able to find yet.

Sejin

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My system:
- 5000L fish pond, 4 x 350L grow beds, 130 gold fish
- first system set up in Feb 2012, expansion in April

History to April 2, 2012:
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=11530&start=240#p322974


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