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PostPosted: Sep 17th, '09, 21:24 
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Seriously, this cant be healthy.
Seriously, this cant be healthy.
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I reckon your air tube is fine, but your inner pipe is too big. Restrict the outlet size, and your siphon will start really well with lower flow rates.

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PostPosted: Sep 17th, '09, 21:54 
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50 tiny silvers in over 3000 litres of water is not going to cause cycling really

I have to agree with OBO on this statement. I am also concerned about the size of fish getting sucked into your pump. (Just a caution)
I don't reckon the system would do much in the short term plants wise.
Then if you are thinking barramundi in the summer, you can't add them to the perch, they'll disappear really quickly.
Sorry to be party pooper.

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PostPosted: Sep 17th, '09, 22:03 
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Outbackozzie wrote:
Hmm, well I dont agree on cycling with fish, have seen way to many fish killed. Fish are a lot harder for me to get hold of, so I value them highly.


Agree with OBO. If I knew what I know now back then, I would have never let anyone talked me into cycling with fish. Needless to say, I was talked into cycling with fishes, we killed over 20 trouts. Without fish, you can push the limits of ammonia and nitrite spikes so that you cycle your system faster, and get down to the "real business" of producing food faster once the system is cycled.

With fish, you tend to need to look after their health during cycling... Unless you do not mind losing fishes during cycling. Ultimately you will get your system cycled but I believe it will be slower than fishless cycling.

I have got no experiences with silvers yet, but I have read recently that some members are losing silvers due to the silvers being too small and the water temperature being still too cold... You should check the differences in temperature between your tank and the farm's tank.

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PostPosted: Sep 17th, '09, 22:17 
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The great debate rages over whether to cycle with or without fish.
I have been involved with setting up and installing many systems, stocking with fish straight away and had very good results, without killing fish. A few rules to keep in mind include keep feeding to a minimum. If and when the system goes through a greening cycle STOP feeding. Avoid water changes if possible, it stresses the fish and delays the cycling process. Follow recommended fish stocking levels and try to avoid all the things that you can add to a system when it is knew. Eg chelated iron, seasol, rock dust, etc etc. Adding lots of products may compromise the water quality and once again stress the fish. Above all have PATIENCE.
It is a nature based system and should not be hurried IMHO.

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PostPosted: Sep 18th, '09, 00:07 
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I've never used the bell siphon, but I thought the small tube was meant to admit air when the water level stops the main intake from doing so, so shouldn't the bottom of the air tube be above the top main inlet to siphon (a few cm higher)?

Re cycling: Fishless has a lot of advantages, but here are some thoughts if you are determined to go with fish:
If ammonia levels from low stocking are too low for decent cycling, perhaps you could add some pure ammonia or some urea (would this be hybrid cycling?). I forget how many grams of urea to use per thousand liters (I have the data if you would like it), but you could start out low (0.1g) and SLOWLY AND CAREFULLY go higher. Any fertilizer that reads 46-0-0 should be urea. Fastest cycling takes place at about 5ppm ammonia, but that is far too high for fish to tolerate. Advantage of adding urea rather than more fish is that it will be darned easy to cut back on ammonia without water changes.

Getting some gravel or muck from an existing system will help speed cycling, fishless or not. Even a couple ml should help quite a bit.

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PostPosted: Sep 18th, '09, 05:34 
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Seriously, this cant be healthy.
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faye wrote:
The great debate rages over whether to cycle with or without fish.
I have been involved with setting up and installing many systems, stocking with fish straight away and had very good results, without killing fish. A few rules to keep in mind include keep feeding to a minimum. If and when the system goes through a greening cycle STOP feeding. Avoid water changes if possible, it stresses the fish and delays the cycling process. Follow recommended fish stocking levels and try to avoid all the things that you can add to a system when it is knew. Eg chelated iron, seasol, rock dust, etc etc. Adding lots of products may compromise the water quality and once again stress the fish. Above all have PATIENCE.
It is a nature based system and should not be hurried IMHO.

I like Faye have helped start a few systems and agree with all of the above
But there is a but seeing people are mostly impatient i recommend just 1 dose of ammonia just to hurry things along

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PostPosted: Sep 18th, '09, 06:47 
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Hi Simo, if your still having trouble with the air bleed on your bell, some clear tube fits nice and snug in the 13mm polyfittings (cheap retic stuff)

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PostPosted: Sep 18th, '09, 07:11 
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hydrophilia wrote:
I've never used the bell siphon, but I thought the small tube was meant to admit air when the water level stops the main intake from doing so, so shouldn't the bottom of the air tube be above the top main inlet to siphon (a few cm higher)?

You have a sharp eye hydrophilia 8)

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PostPosted: Sep 18th, '09, 19:34 
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Today I added a water proof box to the side of my sump tank cage for my power supply, air pump and test kit, it is an old plastic tool box from under a ute tray.

Attachment:
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I went to get the fish any way based on the advice form BYAP and before I had read all the replys. I picked up 100 SP for Gidgie and I was supprised that most were bigger then what I was quoted. A few are 30mm but they range up to 100mm. Lost 2 in the plastic bag when I put it down and they were squashed in the corner with out me noticing.

Attachment:
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The other 98 aclimatised well and seem to like their new home. Fingers crossed they will not be any dead tomorrow.

Attachment:
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Quote:
A few rules to keep in mind include keep feeding to a minimum. If and when the system goes through a greening cycle STOP feeding. Avoid water changes if possible, it stresses the fish and delays the cycling process. Follow recommended fish stocking levels and try to avoid all the things that you can add to a system when it is knew. Eg chelated iron, seasol, rock dust, etc etc. Adding lots of products may compromise the water quality and once again stress the fish.


Thanks for the advice Faye, I am stuck with giving fish cycling ago now so I will just try to make it work and hopfully with all of your help not too many will die. I have to admit that when I watched them swim out of the bag in to the tank I felt like a new dad in that I realised I have no idea what I am doing. The Gigdie fish farm bloke told me to add 9kg of salt and 4kg of crushed lime stone (for buffer) as my water is very soft (rainwater) and not only will it buffer but it hardens the water whish SP prefer. I'm OK with adding the salt but do you think the lime stone is a good thing or should I wait a while for the pH to drop from nuteral?

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PostPosted: Sep 18th, '09, 19:42 
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Add it, they dont like rainwater.

Anything Mr Nagle tells you to do is right.

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PostPosted: Sep 18th, '09, 19:48 
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Quote:
[I reckon your air tube is fine, but your inner pipe is too big. Restrict the outlet size, and your siphon will start really well with lower flow rates./quote]

Quote:
Hi Simo, if your still having trouble with the air bleed on your bell, some clear tube fits nice and snug in the 13mm polyfittings (cheap retic stuff)


I fixed the freakin bell siphons by changing the air bleed to 8mm, the B shop had the clear tube and the elbows so it was fairly easy. Once the siphon has been broken I can now see the water drain back down the clear air bleed tube indicating the bell is again full of air, This was not happening with the smaller tubing.

OBO, I may trial your idea anyway as my inner tube is currently 1 inch but my tank outlet is 3/4 inch so it would be easier to have the inner tube this size. I used the bigger pipe because I thought it would be an advantage as the air space would be smaller therefore requiring less pressure, I now realise that this would have made no difference as the air both sides of the inner pipe needs to be compressed before siphon therefore requiring the same external water pressure. You live and learn.

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PostPosted: Sep 18th, '09, 19:50 
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Quote:
Add it, they dont like rainwater.

Anything Mr Nagle tells you to do is right.



Yeah, I got the feeling he knew what he was talking about.

No problems with water being too soft in Kal is there OBO

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PostPosted: Sep 18th, '09, 21:47 
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No softness out here :D

My blue barrel siphons are 13mm BTW. I think you will find that 19mm - 3/4" will do your flow rate fine.

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PostPosted: Sep 20th, '09, 19:57 
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I added 4kg of garden lime (crushed limestone/ calcium carbonate) to my water yesterday as advised and it immediatly went all cloudy so I couldn't see my fish any more, which I was expecting. What I was not expecting was that the pH went from 7 to 8 in a very short period of time, I did not think this would happen as I was told it was a buffer and since my system was neutral I didn't think it would disolve untill the water became acidic.

Such a rapid and large pH shift was sure to kill all the fish and I thought I would be collecting 98 dead SP this morning. To my surprise there were no floaters and I did not get any dead ones from the floor of the tank when trawling with my net so I assume they all survived. The water is not as murky as yesterday but it is still hard to see the fish, I can see some rapid fish like shadows moving in the depths so fingers crossed all will be fine.

The problem I now have is that I can't see if the fish are eating of not and I don't know how much to feed them. The SP man said to feed them a small pinch at a time untill they stop eating so I have just given them one pinch a day as I don't want to over feed.

How much should I be feeding 98 SP with an average length of 50mm who are in 14 to 15 degree celcius water?

Please help

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PostPosted: Sep 20th, '09, 20:26 
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Well when cycling with fishes, it is not about how much you need to feed the fishes. Apparently the fishes can go about a week without food. It is the level of ammonia and nitrite that is important, at unacceptable levels of ammonia and nitrite, the fishes will die due to water quality before they starve to death. Feeding will lead to increased ammonia levels if you do not yet have bacteria working.

At a pH of 8 and water temp of 16degC, your ammonia should not exceed 0.71 . Above that, ammonia becomes toxic to the fishes. To mitigate against nitrite spikes, you should salt your tank to at least 1ppt (1kg per 1000L of water).

Just test the water daily and post results, so people can comment.

Also uneaten food will affect water quality, so if you are using sinking pellets you should feed carefully. Otherwise stop feeding until the water has cleared up.

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