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Which is your favorite cold water fish?
Catfish 17%  17%  [ 7 ]
Trout 31%  31%  [ 13 ]
Carp 7%  7%  [ 3 ]
Bluegill 12%  12%  [ 5 ]
Crappie 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
Bass 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Perch 26%  26%  [ 11 ]
Other 5%  5%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 42
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PostPosted: Mar 13th, '12, 06:51 
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To original poster: I don't think adding chicken manure to your system is a good idea. Manure from warm blooded animals (and turtles) conatins pathogens.


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PostPosted: Mar 14th, '12, 14:25 
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PostPosted: Mar 16th, '12, 08:18 
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Hey billycojack,

When are you coming back home? Where abouts?

I'm very interested in what you are doing from info gathering to planning to final setup. So I'm going to subscribe to your thread right now.

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PostPosted: Mar 21st, '12, 00:45 
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Sorry guys, I was away, but really really thinking about what was being said here, and mentally planning my system like 24/7 because I am getting obsessed about solving all the worlds hunger problems :)

...thinking about a clay/rockbed system, and wondering if a foot pump could be used with it (ie. how much minimum volume would have to be pumped per day for the survival of the fish, and am sure it comes mostly down to aeration): http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/social_issues/july-dec10/kickstart_07-13.html

...but that is not the point of this thread.

scotty435 wrote:
I think carp and bullhead would cohabit but not sure if the young would be safe.
and
kellenw wrote:
Bullheads that come from clean water are actually quite tasty. They are pretty easy to breed as well, but they do need some room in order breed reliably... they are actually quite piscavorous, so protection or removal of young fry would be required.

Actually, this is where my brain is heading... The bullheads would eat the smaller shitty-like stuff and the carps would shit a lot even when it's cold. And both are good eating, no matter what anyone says (thanks for the direction Scotty), BUT like kellen mentioned, protection of the eggs and fry is a must.

That being said, I read that Tilapia females grow less when they have their kids in their mouths because they don't like to eat when they have little babies swimming around. So to solve this, people put nets down just above the bottom to keep them from sucking up/incubating the eggs after they drop. Then the women eat normally, and the fry are okay because of the lack of predators. Nice solution.

So here is what I am proposing (and asking you the experts), but also where I need help: Carp are nasty and eat anything, bullheads seem better, but maybe not. Could this problem be solved by a simple underwater debris field such as dead branches or holey rocks or even that same old net? One would need snails or crayfish or mussels or something else (I have no idea how they work) to clean up the sludge where the smaller bullheads could not get (maybe the small fry would do this as well?), but it might work. Initially I was thinking of a chambered tank with sized holes for the smaller fish to escape though, but it lacks the simplicity I like. Would the the tree branches acting as guards for the eggs and fry world work, or is there something better that is similar? I know that it would cut down on the total area for the bigger fish, but that could be dealt with.

I am totally shooting in the dark here, so thanks for listening. It's not quite rocket science though, and I am sure there is a simple solution to a solid cold water self-propagation fish fit for aquaponics.


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PostPosted: Mar 21st, '12, 01:02 
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...


Last edited by billycojack on Mar 21st, '12, 01:07, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mar 21st, '12, 01:06 
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Bob H wrote:
Hey billycojack,

When are you coming back home? Where abouts?

I live in Minneapolis and will be heading back in about a month, but will be building the system about an hour outside the city in Stockholm once the property is closed on. So dude, we've got to solve this problem... there are many out there in the Northern states that could benefit.

RIght now, if we can't find a perfect answer, my plan is to go out fishing and simply stock the thing with whatever I can catch. I am sure that this is not the best answer however, and I fear mercury and toxin poisoning via eating caught fish everyday as well as their impact on the plants and soil over time, but if I simply throw everything in there, plus water plants, minnows and all other creatures, something good will happen. I am sure of it.


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PostPosted: Mar 21st, '12, 02:13 
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kthignight24 wrote:
To original poster: I don't think adding chicken manure to your system is a good idea. Manure from warm blooded animals (and turtles) conatins pathogens.

Definitely something to look out for, but I did see a urban pool system (http://gardenpool.org/) on the TV show "Preppers" which used chicken crap. Also, here in China they use human poop to feed both their plants and farmed carp, granted they wash and cook everything before they eat it. Will keep that in mind though, thanks.


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PostPosted: Apr 17th, '12, 04:14 
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I also wanted to say that I have decided those "preppers" are not being very wise to be exposing their small children to possible pathogens like ecoli by using all that warm chicken poop! I like the gardenpool.org site and think they have many other great ideas, but I really think the "education" they are giving people with small children in regard to using chicken manure in aquaponics will eventually come back to haunt them. It can be deadly people! Ecoli has been found in aquaponics systems that use manures and are adequately filtered mechanically! Newbies that put chicken manure in their new systems that may have anaerobic places and inadequate "biofilters" are asking for pathogen problems so please please please be careful!!!!


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PostPosted: Apr 17th, '12, 07:20 
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lesslea317 wrote:
I also wanted to say that I have decided those "preppers" are not being very wise to be exposing their small children to possible pathogens like ecoli by using all that warm chicken poop! I like the gardenpool.org site and think they have many other great ideas, but I really think the "education" they are giving people with small children in regard to using chicken manure in aquaponics will eventually come back to haunt them. It can be deadly people! Ecoli has been found in aquaponics systems that use manures and are adequately filtered mechanically! Newbies that put chicken manure in their new systems that may have anaerobic places and inadequate "biofilters" are asking for pathogen problems so please please please be careful!!!!


+1
Gotta admit though love their pool idea and they're the reason I learned about Aquaponics
Does cooking something like in boiling water kill the e-coli pathogens?


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PostPosted: Apr 17th, '12, 09:17 
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the point of the poop in the water is to fertilize it so that algae grows, which tilapia do eat..
still not a good idea for a "closed" sysem like ap

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PostPosted: Apr 17th, '12, 10:42 
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Tojo- yes you can boil out pathogens, but they are still around your AP system and what about your berries? etc. I know my children always want to just harvest things right off the stem since all our gardens are organic. If you compost your manure for 6 months, it can then be safely added to your system or near things that you put in your system. I don't know how practical that would be, but that's my understanding from studying vermiculture lately.


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PostPosted: Apr 17th, '12, 11:15 
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I guess my first post didn't take, so I will write it again to get us back on the subject of self-propagating cold water fish for greenhouse aquaponics. This is what I am attempting to do now. I have designed a mixed system with CF and F&D in a (modified) Chift pist system. My tank is being finished this week and my 25 brown bullheads will be arriving in about 2 weeks :) They should all be over 6 inch but I don't know if they will be big enough for breeding or if they will still breed after the transport of about an hour... I have designed a 4X8 styrofoam insulated tank that is 3 ft deep and halfway in the ground. I plan on lining the edges with 14-16 buckets with rocks and sand for breeding in. I will have a duckweed cover and water hyacinths and over time I plan on adding a pleco for cleanup. I have already began growing over 5000 compost worms for feeding. There will be a SLO from the tank to the sump and the pump is in the sump that takes the water up to grow beds that drain back into fishtank. Hopefully I will get at least a breeding pair that I can then move over to the sump with fry. Does this sound right? I love eating catfish! When they are in clean water they taste better than trout to me! Carp are too bony... I hope my plan works but I would definately appreciate any feedback. I hope to post some pics next month. I have had a bullhead in my aquarium before but this whole aquaponics thing is more complicated. Gardening and fish are two of my fav. things though so I am really excited


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PostPosted: Apr 17th, '12, 16:52 
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hi lesslea317,

Your ideas might work but I see some potential issues that you will have to deal with. First if this is an outdoor system your water temp even with insulation will get to cold for the pleco so you'll have to bring him in during the Winter or heat your tank. You might not need him since bullhead will eat some algae. The other issue is the fry going into the sump tank where the pump is - you'll need to figure a way to keep them out of the pump but still be able to pump solids to the growbeds. Adding a tank with a screened outflow for breeding pairs and fry just before the sump would be a way to do this.

The water hyacinth will soak up lots of the nutrients that your plants in the growbeds could use. I would just start with plants in the growbed and not add the water hyacinth until after the system has cycled.

I believe The New Alchemy Institute did research with growing bullhead for food back in the 70's that might be worth finding.


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PostPosted: Apr 18th, '12, 03:26 
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Thank you for these thoughts, I am thinking from other people's experience that it is good to get the system cycling, then add plants, then fish. I just don't really want to add plants that I care to lose at first. This is why I thought the water hyacinth/etc, would be a good plant to use at first to start to get the idea and once my beds start to balance I can add food plants and remove biolfilter plants and add them back when/if need be. It is my understanding that duckweed prefers ammonia and hyacinth prefers nitrites, leaving the nitrates for the food plants. I, too am concerned about the sump for fry but I highly doubt I will have to worry about that this year since my fish should still be adjusting during breeding season. Ultimately, I think I would build a shelf on the tank for an aquarium with a little aquarium pump that sucks water up from the main tank, Or just leave them in the main tank and see what happens?. I have decided for oxygens sake that it will be better to have a bigger pump and faster flow rate that I had originally envisioned. My design has a tank of about 700 gals (3182 liters). overflowing to the sump of almost 400 gals.(1818 liters) I was going to have a 800 gal. (3636 liters) pump take the water in 4 directions through 5/8 drinking water hose with the max height up being 8'. I think now I should have a bigger pump and larger 1" piping to deliver the water to the 4 growbeds that equal 700 gals.(3182 liters) but I am using hydroton so maybe my plan is ok? I guess this whole concept of head pressure is confusing me, but I should probably find the right forum for that. lol


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PostPosted: Apr 18th, '12, 08:34 
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lesslea317 wrote:
It is my understanding that duckweed prefers ammonia and hyacinth prefers nitrites, leaving the nitrates for the food plants.


It would be better to cycle the system before adding your fish and not have to depend on the aquatic plants for your filtration. You are trying to get bacteria built up on the growbed media that will break down the ammonia into nitrite and then nitrate. If the hyacinth and duckweed are using these up, the bacteria probably won't be populating the growbed like you want and your growbed plants won't be getting much in the way of nitrate. Still a bit cold for water hyacinth if your trying to do this outdoors (Fish Tank water temps running around 55 to 60 during the day).

Like the bigger pump, bigger piping. The pipe tends to get a biofilm in AP so it's good to compensate for this at the beginning. By "5/8 drinking water hose" do you mean Pex? (probably get algae in this if it's translucent)?

Pump head height is what you need to look at. The water in the pipe from the pump to the surface isn't included when looking at the head height. Basically figure it as the water surface to the highest height the water reaches. So 2' of head would be from the water surface (which is above the submersible pump) to 2' above it. The pump should have a chart that describes how many gallons it can put out at whatever head height.

You may want to start a new thread for your system to get things going all in one place.

Cheers


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