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PostPosted: May 5th, '10, 18:10 
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On the subject of clove oil I was reading in an Aquaculture newsletter which states it is a banned substance for use in Aquaculture?
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PostPosted: May 5th, '10, 19:15 
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Thats right Aquastud. I was told several years ago when I tried to buy some from an aquaculture supplies place that it has been found to be carcinogenic and not approved for aquaculture so they can no longer sell it. There are plenty of sites on the net stating that it is carcinogenic if you search a bit. This is why fish farms use Aquis or benzocaine and not Clove Oil!!!

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PostPosted: May 6th, '10, 00:16 
Aquastud wrote:
On the subject of clove oil I was reading in an Aquaculture newsletter which states it is a banned substance for use in Aquaculture?
Attachment:
Aquaculture-Newsletter-7.zip

Not entirely true... it was never explicitly "banned"... read the article...

It just never was an "approved" "registered chemical... although it has been previously accepted on a "minor use" basis... even if tacitly...

Recently the ARAC, in conjunction DPI, the Silver Perch Association, and others... sought to have it registered with the National Aquaculture Council (NAC)... and with the APVMA... as a "registered chemical"...

Quote:
This year the Aquaculture Research Advisory Committee wrote to the National Aquaculture Council (NAC) seeking assistance to progress an industry wide application.


The application ... "for Minor Use Application with the APVMA".... was dropped due to ... "variation in batches and impurities that may have unknown risks on fish and operators."

The primary reason that Clove Oil has never been certified for use... is the sheer cost of the certification process...

Whereas Aqui-S... an NZ company, sought fit to undertake the approval process... at the cost of hundreds of thousands of dollars... for it's product, both here in Australia, NZ, US and Europe...


And what is the principal ingredient of Aqui-S...."2-methoxy-4-propenylphenol"

http://www.fws.gov/fisheries/aadap/04_A ... AQUI-S.pdf

And what is "2-methoxy-4-propenylphenol"... Eugenol - Clove Oil.... although it's sometimes referred to as "dihydroeugenol", particularly by Aqui-S... :roll:

http://chemicalland21.com/specialtychem ... UGENOL.htm

Given the stated zero with-holding period for Aqui-S... and supposed zero uptake to fish flesh... one could be somewhat sceptical as to the claims that "clove oil" is carcenogenic...

interestingly, from an Aqui-S document...

Quote:
Other common anaesthetics such as quinaldine sulphate, benzocaine, 2-phenoxyethanol and metomidate, are not registered for use in Australia, New Zealand, Canada, USA or Europe. Their potential residual toxicity to humans prevents their use during harvesting


http://www.flinders.edu.au/about_resear ... Aqui~S.pdf

And the MSDS for Benzocaine hardly inspires confidence...

Quote:
The substance is toxic to blood, the nervous system.
Repeated or prolonged exposure to the substance can produce target organs damage.


http://www.sciencelab.com/xMSDS-Benzocaine-9923049


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PostPosted: May 6th, '10, 00:29 
Here are two previous (long standing studies) on the effects of "clove oil" on carp and trout...

http://old.vri.cz/docs/vetmed/50-6-269.pdf

http://vfu-www.vfu.cz/acta-vet/vol74/74-139.pdf

Both of which conclude... neglible uptake or lasting effects on blood or flesh uptake...


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PostPosted: May 6th, '10, 00:46 
And more...

http://afsjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1577/ ... lCode=naja

http://www.spc.int/Coastfish/news/lrf/5/1Clove.htm

http://vip.vetsci.usyd.edu.au/contentUp ... /Cohen.pdf

http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.3955/0 ... lCode=nwsc

http://www.springerlink.com/content/k328u4270gk54535/

http://agris.fao.org/agris-search/searc ... 2005000329

There is "some" suggestion as to "possible" effects with regard to human exposure... but not from consumption of fish flesh from exposure to clove oil... more from direct exposure, or ... added directly to human food ...

The suggestion comes about because MS-222 (Finquel), and Methyleugenol... are regarded as carcinogenic... particularly to rodents...

Clove oil is often contaminated with methyleugenol... during manufacture... hence the concern as to "variations in batches"... outlined in the original document...

http://hpl.umces.edu/IACUC/resources/gu ... dustry.pdf


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PostPosted: May 6th, '10, 00:59 
In short, while there have been many studies that suggest "clove oil" is a safe, gentle means of fish anaesthesia... with neglible uptake...

Concerns exist as to methyleugenol... and only Aqui-S has been able to demonstrate production of a "pure" product... and gained approval accordingly...

As i said.... at great cost... the US FDA approval cost them over $137,000 alone...


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PostPosted: May 6th, '10, 20:37 
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I dont have the time to read all your links Rup but the bottom line is that Clove Oil has not been approved for food fish production. As you state it has been found to be carcinogenic to rats and I think that history shows that many tests with various chemicals on rats have had similar results when tested on humans.
Given that most people are into aquaponics to produce food that is healthy and free of chemicals why would one want to take a risk in using Clove Oil just to obtain a weight of a fish?? The potential risks are just not worth it in my opinion.

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PostPosted: May 6th, '10, 21:46 
I understand the point you're making regarding the "possible" risks Troutman... and "clove oil" as commonly available, potentially can be contaminated by the compound shown to have carcenogenic effects on rats...

But studies have consistantly shown that uptake into blood or flesh is so minimal as to be inconsequential... particularly in terms of accumulation...

But yes, some risk has been identified, and that formed the basis of the withdrawn petition...

One of the points I was making though... was that Aqui-S... is still essentially the same compound, although supposedly with less likelyhood of contamination... and is approved...

Although Aqui-S suggests Benzocaine is banned... again, it's commonly used as an alternative to clove oil... certainly for larger scale fish, and/or saltwater species... like bream, barra, snapper, mulloway etc...

Whereas the actual carcenogenic potential... is probably greater...

And the actual usage, particularly for beginners/backyarders.... significantly more risky....

So where does that leave us... Aqui-S.... essentially the same product as Clove Oil.... at a vastly inflated price... and trust that the company has got their production processes right... and the science of toxicity to rats doesn't equally apply... :dontknow:

P.S .. so which do you use then... Clove Oil, Aqui-S, or Benzocaine???


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PostPosted: May 7th, '10, 19:37 
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RupertofOZ wrote:
P.S .. so which do you use then... Clove Oil, Aqui-S, or Benzocaine???


For harvesting fish I dont use any of the above, I either use a gate or drop the water level.

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PostPosted: May 7th, '10, 23:15 
Ditto... but I have dropped the level & used clove oil to sample/grade fish in the past...

Not something that most members would have to do... or that I would advise...


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PostPosted: Jun 18th, '10, 20:25 
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Interesting discussion Rupe and Gavin - thanks - it's something we just covered as part of my Cert II - for the prac part we used Aqui-S to anaethetise 15 snapper of around a kilo.

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PostPosted: Apr 16th, '11, 04:57 
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What age are 6" SP. Or how long does it take to grow a fingerling to n this size?


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