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PostPosted: Apr 4th, '16, 19:06 
I am looking for the correct concoction that would be used to water plants in general and then what ever else comes up. I know different plants need different items to enjoy their life. So if you have the best mix, let me know. Maybe we can get it bottled. lol

Above ground Plants like:

Below ground plants like:

Special Plants Like:

I guess we can start with H2O across the board. And lets say this H2O is RO or distilled water with everything is stripped out.

Now you go to the store and buy a gallon of water to feed your plants. What do you want in it? What Chemistry? Forget the fish for now being in the circuit, it can be an ingredient if needed. Say we just have Hydroponics set up and will flip over to fish at a future date. What's the magic mix for the plants for them to grow the best?
TY


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PostPosted: Apr 5th, '16, 04:43 
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Every plant has different nutrient profile requirements for maximum health and growth. All which has been founded with the agricultural and hydroponic industries.

Usually graded in NPK ratings and then whatever micro/macro nutrient levels are required. 90% of aquaponicists don't test for most or any of these as it relies more so on the natural biological development to grow plants. But, there are backyarders that are moving out of the basic natural nature of AP and moving more towards test lab AP to modify and manage water parameters for maximum plant growth and health much like commercial operations.

But to your opening post, you will find most nutrient profiles for certain plants on the web. There is not one magic formula.

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PostPosted: Apr 5th, '16, 09:25 
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To add to Charlie's comment > I think you'll find the additives used in Hydro will not be safe for fish.

I would suggest researching nutrients for plants on the web and then ask on Hydro forums if you are not including fish in the chain.

I freely admit I don't test my nutrients > right or wrong I keep an eye on the plants and when I see something I'll adjust then. Certainly not ideal but then I'm just a back yarder. Clearly if you're running a commercial enterprise it's something you'd want to be all over.


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PostPosted: Apr 5th, '16, 11:52 
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Cunningstunter wrote:

I freely admit I don't test my nutrients > right or wrong I keep an eye on the plants and when I see something I'll adjust then. Certainly not ideal but then I'm just a back yarder. Clearly if you're running a commercial enterprise it's something you'd want to be all over.


Most of the time, you don't test for the plants sake, you test for the fish's sake.

But I haven't tested for a few months either. Should get onto that.

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PostPosted: Apr 5th, '16, 11:57 
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Colum Black-Byron wrote:
Cunningstunter wrote:

I freely admit I don't test my nutrients > right or wrong I keep an eye on the plants and when I see something I'll adjust then. Certainly not ideal but then I'm just a back yarder. Clearly if you're running a commercial enterprise it's something you'd want to be all over.


Most of the time, you don't test for the plants sake, you test for the fish's sake.

But I haven't tested for a few months either. Should get onto that.


I can handle losing plants, but not the fish.....

It sounds as though the OP should look at the hydro forums or just google which plants need which nutes


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PostPosted: Apr 5th, '16, 13:22 
Well, first of all there is no Google in China anymore. They are banned. Second I have found a lot of info for plants. All Sorts of N-P-K numbers for each plant. But there is nothing to find for what a good N-P-K general number should be for macro nutrients. Micro nutrients are even more classified to find. So I am hoping that one of you must know the best general rule of thumb for N-P-K values if you start with 0-0-0 This will be turned over to operate with AP fish so no chemicals are allowed, no dirt just clean items that will not harm the fish.

OK Fish poo scores high on the N-P-K scale with 5-2-2 but how do we use this information against the plants. There must be some N-P-K number that is in general good for all plants and then for special plants take them off line and bump or remove some to suit.

What is a good N-P-K general number for most plants. What is the goal?


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PostPosted: Apr 5th, '16, 13:37 
I am following what I have mostly read here. The average person seems to start up the GBs first. Get them in swing and then add the fish in last. So this is something you all say you do. And if I wanted just plants or just fish I would not be here. I figure you all must be the combo AP people or am I at the wrong site?

So if I start with RO water, what do I need to add to get what general N-P-K numbers to satisfy plants to start with and then add in the fish weeks later. like most of you write you do on new tanks.


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PostPosted: Apr 5th, '16, 14:15 
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Deuem,
Deuem wrote:
What is a good N-P-K general number for most plants. What is the goal?

This is probably too broad of a question. I suppose you could look at any bottle labeled "general fertilizer" and see what numbers that manufacturer thought would be good to sell to those who don't know what they need. But if you want to get some real figuring out done, pick a real specific plant. Rather than generic numbers, let's get real numbers for a real plant that you might have in an AP system.

The generic info is that all plants require the same 16 essential nutrients:

Non-mineral nutrients: Oxygen, Hydrogen, Carbon

Primary nutrients (your N-P-K): Nitrogen, Phosphorus, Potassium

Secondary nutrients: Calcium, Magnesium, Sulfur

Micronutrients: Boron, Chlorine, Copper, Iron, Manganese, Molybdenum, Zinc

The 1st three non-mineral nutrients are obtained from the water and atmosphere. Quality fish-feed contains most of the rest of the nutrients in sufficient quantity that supplementation is usually only needed for Iron, Calcium, and Potassium. How much of what you need can be determined by plant types and stages of growth and also water pH.

Lots of variables.

For example, a typical general potato fertilizer N-P-K balance would be 7-5-12. Rhubarb likes a LOT of Nitrogen, Radish, very little... Miracle Grow for Tomatoes is 18-18-21. But for growth one normally would use higher N and for flowering higher P and for fruiting higher K.
Pick a plant and we can figure it out for its various stages. Pick something tasty, please! :headbang:

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PostPosted: Apr 5th, '16, 14:25 
Cunningstunter wrote:
Colum Black-Byron wrote:
Cunningstunter wrote:


I can handle losing plants, but not the fish.....


If you don't care about the plants, then why grow them, just use a FT filter and save a bunch of time.

This AP should be a 50/50 ordeal, NO?

You must not understand my water situation. Our Tap water kills all the fish in 3 days and they do not add anything to it, so I am told. So I am pretty sure I don't want that water inside of my plants so I have little choice but to strip it of everything and start again. Our local well water got poisoned so that is off limits also.

We are all hurting for good water here. If you can drink your water as is, you are lucky. I want to do my best to get away from veggies that are grown on local water. It can contain anything under the sun. And the field farmers use it right out of the polluted river. I work with a lot of kids here and the brains have been damaged over the years from eating polluted foods. Probably heavy metals in the greens. People here eat greens with every meal. So the chance of exposure is a lot. They also grow all the local fish in this water in huge ponds one needs to row across to feed all the fish.

I have also read many times that AP greens are mostly tasteless. That happens because of the lack of plant nutrients. I also have read that most every green sold here and in the states is now lacking nutrients because the ground has been sucked dry over the years. Down by over 30% This helps the AP field get noticed if done right.

Mother Nature handles the H2O with rain and sun and the Ground with NPK. In AP we need to do all 3.

So what do I do with stripped out RO water to get the right amount of NPK into it as a general rule of thumb. Plants will not grow on straight RO water in AP with no dirt. There is no food for them. My testing with FT water so far gives me about 3 weeks for them to strip it out 100% with wicked beds. I have now changed my test beds to be able to drain this watering level out and replace it with fresh juiced up water. No matter how I tested, inside or out, at around 3 weeks all growth stopped or slowed down to a really slow pace. Replacing this stagnant water will start them again with new food.


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PostPosted: Apr 5th, '16, 15:41 
nosliwmas wrote:

The generic info is that all plants require the same 16 essential nutrients:

Non-mineral nutrients: Oxygen, Hydrogen, Carbon

Primary nutrients (your N-P-K): Nitrogen, Phosphorus, Potassium

Secondary nutrients: Calcium, Magnesium, Sulfur

Micronutrients: Boron, Chlorine, Copper, Iron, Manganese, Molybdenum, Zinc

The 1st three non-mineral nutrients are obtained from the water and atmosphere. Quality fish-feed contains most of the rest of the nutrients in sufficient quantity that supplementation is usually only needed for Iron, Calcium, and Potassium. How much of what you need can be determined by plant types and stages of growth and also water pH.

Lots of variables.

For example, a typical general potato fertilizer N-P-K balance would be 7-5-12. Rhubarb likes a LOT of Nitrogen, Radish, very little... Miracle Grow for Tomatoes is 18-18-21. But for growth one normally would use higher N and for flowering higher P and for fruiting higher K.
Pick a plant and we can figure it out for its various stages. Pick something tasty, please! :headbang:

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Sam


Ok Sam that's a good start. Let me fill you in with what I am starting from seed right now. In one bed, Lettuce, da ba choi ( a Chinese cabbage) and boc choi. In separate beds, one type to a test are the following. Tomatoes, large and cherry. Carrots, 5 inchers. Broccoli, Pumpkin squash and some type of Chinese celery looking plant. Over all the pumpkin plant is by far doing the best and is now on it's 3rd set of leaves. has been transplanted twice and still growing strong. Please note that all of my test beds are at the moment stand alone units I can fill or change out water on my own. If needed they can remain that way or in the future hooked up directly to the FT. I will probably end up with one or 2 AP setups and a bunch of off the line pots/beds. I am ok with that, if that is what is needed for different plants. I do not have the room for a FT large enough to feed the family so that is a problem also. I hope that is enough info to help out.

There are more plants I wish to grow from seed/cuttings but can't find them yet. They are onions, peppers bells and longs. Potatoes, celery eggplant and garlic.. I only need one plant of each at any one time and a replacement set in the works behind it. The condo jungle has little room to work with.

The most tasty thing I have started would be the pumpkin squash. It was started from our garbage seeds from dinner one night. The mama squash was very tasty. Much better then we usually buy.

"Miracle Grow for Tomatoes is 18-18-21." Since fish poo is 5-2-2 or so, no wonder the tomatoes are hurting. No wonder every time I see photos of tomatoes here they are very sparse compared to what I have grown in dirt. Like I said, I have no problem keeping anything off line of the fish and handling them differently. I can and will use the fish water as a base to start with if I can. So if I want this concoction I would need to add 13-16-19 to the fish water for the tomatoes to do well. So far nothing I have researched even comes close to 13-16-19 as a Natural additive. So it will take a lot of concoctions to make the water I need for the off line plants and I will have to settle in with one general one for the AP fish water.

So far you are on the right track for what we need to do. TY.


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PostPosted: Apr 5th, '16, 16:04 
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Theres a lot of great info within the forum in regards to nutrient profiles, additions, manipulation etc etc. Ill agree that are hard to find.

You may find this interesting..viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8781


There are many others and Ill have a go at looking them up for you later.

Not sure what tomato pics you have been looking at but Ive seen some AP produce make conventional gardening look like childs play.

I grew these a few years back..
Attachment:
tommie2.jpg
tommie2.jpg [ 118.71 KiB | Viewed 3180 times ]



And anything Ryan has done..
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=12589&hilit=farms
Attachment:
photo_zpsg4zgv09x.jpg [410.01 KiB]
Downloaded 24 times


Or the size does matter thread..
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6036&hilit=matter

There are many others with successful tomato and other species of growing.

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PostPosted: Apr 5th, '16, 16:59 
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perhaps his question could be considered from a "plant family" stand point, IE. brassicas, Solanaceae, etc.

since surely families would mostly like similar nutrient profiles, the way you dont give too much nitrogen to potatos or tomatoes if you want more fruit and not more leaves.


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PostPosted: Apr 5th, '16, 18:18 
Charlie, in that thread you had posted you only got 3 tomatoes from the plant. Is that a good harvest of tomatoes. I would expect a ton of them coming out my ears.

I did like the monster plants some people got to grow and the boc choi was my favorite. The wife said her mom grows them that big in the dirt. I have about 50 boc choi seedlings ready for transfer right now. I wonder if I will get anything even close to that 5.25kg plant.


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PostPosted: Apr 5th, '16, 18:46 
Yavimaya wrote:
perhaps his question could be considered from a "plant family" stand point, IE. brassicas, Solanaceae, etc.

since surely families would mostly like similar nutrient profiles, the way you dont give too much nitrogen to potatos or tomatoes if you want more fruit and not more leaves.


Yes, this makes a lot of sense and I have no problem keeping some GBs off line in order to give them what they need. I do feel comfortable in using the fish water as a base and going from there for the off line plants.

I just finished adding a drain with a water level filling pipe to my test beds so I know the water level inside and I can fill or drain from the bottom up. These GBs are 2/3 clay balls for the roots and air and 1/3 pea gravel on top for stability and restraint of evaporation. The sight tubes are marked with this transition line.

The standard N-P-K for plants I found on line was 5-5-5. tomatoes and veggies 4-5-3 Fish Poo should be 5-2-2 so AP seems to need additives for most things to grow better. Need to add about 0-3-1 to the water? Oyster shell has a very high P value of 10+ and I can get it here. The K value of it is low and may meet the minimum amount needed. I will have to try and grind some up and steep it for a month to see what happens to the water. I am also steeping egg shells and rice right now and they are almost done. They are for the micronutrients.

All comments are welcome on this adventure.


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PostPosted: Apr 5th, '16, 21:19 
I went thru the 88 page Ryans thread and YES, he can grow tomatoes. He can grow almost anything. Nice Green Thumb. But he works very hard to keep it that green. He also mentioned the NPK was very important and once you figure out what you need maintain it. But he never said a word that I could find of what it was. I guess it is one of his farms secrets. So be it, they do that here also.


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