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Venting corner
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Author:  RupertofOZ [ Aug 8th, '07, 07:28 ]
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mc, are you aware of the current bill(s) before the congress that would legalise what to date has been the illegal "spying" and monitoring of ALL communications entering, leaving and internal to the US.... a complete ignorance of the "Fisser" (sp) act....

And how Bush is threatening to charge the Washington Post and NY Times under the "Espionage" act??

Author:  meancoyote [ Aug 8th, '07, 08:13 ]
Post subject:  Re: Venting corner

:x i try not to think much about what has been happening lately.

still got this kinda :?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

this one is almost gone :|

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

ya this one is gone,

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

the patriot act kills this one,

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

o-well as long as i have beer :D

Author:  RupertofOZ [ Aug 8th, '07, 08:26 ]
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Quote:
o-well as long as i have beer


I'll drink to that :wink:

Author:  RupertofOZ [ Aug 8th, '07, 08:30 ]
Post subject: 

Quote:
And how Bush is threatening to charge the Washington Post and NY Times under the "Espionage" act??


that's the exact some thing Nixon and Ford tried against the same papers back in 1971 when they leaked the "Pentagon Papers" which exposed the lies and deliberate pretences used to justify the Vietnam War...

Supreme Court ruled in favour of the press on that occassion....

If this all sounds a little familiar then perhaps you should look for the common link......

Yep.... Cheney and Rummesfeldt.... they've been pushing the same agenda for thirty years......

Author:  meancoyote [ Aug 8th, '07, 09:26 ]
Post subject:  Re: Venting corner

ive allways noticed that the rest of the world seems to pay more attention to us politics than do most americans :D i will incude myself in the most group for this subject, i get mad if i watch the news much. maybe i put to much faith in my thoughts that the 250+ millon civilian owned weapons in the us will keep things from ever getting out of hand. really though i think the most powerfull weapon for freedom is the internet.

Author:  earthbound [ Aug 8th, '07, 09:34 ]
Post subject:  Re: Venting corner

meancoyote wrote:
maybe i put to much faith in my thoughts that the 250+ millon civilian owned weapons in the us will keep things from ever getting out of hand.


Wow, thats an interesting thought :shock: I hope peaceful protest is tried first... :lol:

Author:  meancoyote [ Aug 8th, '07, 09:39 ]
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si vis pacem para bellum

Author:  earthbound [ Aug 8th, '07, 10:17 ]
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You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war.

Albert Einstein

Author:  meancoyote [ Aug 8th, '07, 10:57 ]
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if someone wishes to do you harm to advance themselves, i feel the best defense is to make it so that if they even try to do you harm, they may lose everything they have. that should help keep them from thinking it is worth it to bother you. of course i may be wrong...

Author:  earthbound [ Aug 8th, '07, 11:06 ]
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Isn't that the cold war all over again, arms race type stuff.. If you have the power to take out everything they have, then they will feel threatened, and rightly so.. So then they will try and bolster a position where they can have the upper hand, and so on...

I'm a pacifist from way back, probably born in the wrong era.. :lol:

Nonviolence doesn't always work -- but violence never does.
Madge Michaels-Cyrus

Author:  meancoyote [ Aug 8th, '07, 11:28 ]
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this may be the most unpopular thing ill ever say, but maybe the thousands of lives, and trillons of $$$$ the cold war cost just may have saved hundreds of millions of lives? we will never know. im sure better communication of world leaders, and a more pacifist attitude by the people running the world back then would have been far cheaper in every way. i dont think that a person in this day will ever become a world leader by being a pacifist. i dont know if that is a good or bad thing? its good in thought, but how do you teach the world not to kill each other? i fear it is something people will never learn.....for now i want to be the one who is able to fight back.

Author:  Jaymie [ Aug 8th, '07, 11:45 ]
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I think of myself as a pacifist, but I'd be the first to start swinging to protect my family (Alex likes to threaten people with me, I don't know why :? )

I hate to think that I may have hurt someone, whether physically or emotionally, but the mother tiger definitely (or defiantly as the case may be) dwells within :evil5:

Author:  meancoyote [ Aug 8th, '07, 11:51 ]
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yup, fighting sucks. good exercise, but still sucks.

Author:  creative1 [ Aug 8th, '07, 12:09 ]
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especially when we are all human, wanting, needing.
Thinking and lead by the ears!
We even know what is wrong! and still do it!!!!
History is there for all to read, not much changes,still the
rich and powerful telling us what to do!
Surely there are enough houses, cars, food,
I know we have enough tele's, mobiles(cellphones)even hospital beds.
Too busy stacking the cash to look at society falling down in a heap
of burnt ppl around us.
Imagine a world where we moved around unhinded, swapping houses and cars even jobs! Our knowlege would be spread to all parts of the world!!.. thou the meek would surely get the message.
The rich getting richer.... the poor get the picture....
Only when we realize we are all the same will we get on with the job!!!
And we aint there yet.

Author:  mokevinb [ Aug 11th, '07, 04:05 ]
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You know MC, you did raise a good point about the cold war, and how it might have prevented the deaths of millions more in the third world war.

As far as pacifism goes, I think it is a much overrated stand. Just go back in your history and look at what happened in the 1930's after Joe Stalin, PM Chamberlein and others had happen to them after they made peace pacts with Adolf Hitler.

While I do not condone a long, drugout military action in the Middle East, Bush the First messed up by not removing Saddam Hussein in the first Gulf War. I know many people argue, "the Arab nations wouldn't have stood for it." Well, look at what has been going on now for the past five years. The "nations" have not actively supported or been engaged in the war, but the Arab citizens sure have! (Bin Laden is one of the richest Arab businessmen in the world, and has been an active leader of an extremist group for years. But yet, neither the Saudi government or royal family did anything to effectively stop him. Hmmm! Smells like something I stepped in out side!)

While I do not think the US Congress or Senate will be able to do anything, outside of impeachment proceedings and contempt charges, to stop what Bush/Cheney/Ashcroft/Gonzolazes/Rumsfield/Rice/Powell and others have already done from continueing. I am not against laws and actions that truly protect the US and our allies, but when the cost of those laws is the loss of freedoms, as "guaranteed" by the constitution of the US and treaties with other nations, then we must act to correct the situation before it becomes more dire.

Kevin

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