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 Post subject: Re: The Evolution Puzzle
PostPosted: May 28th, '13, 17:47 
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 Post subject: Re: The Evolution Puzzle
PostPosted: May 28th, '13, 17:49 
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 Post subject: Re: The Evolution Puzzle
PostPosted: May 28th, '13, 17:57 
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BTW, JM

In my copy of Sheldrake's book he was only writing about the incident in Britain, NOT about birds in Holland. He must have that added in the reprints of his book Presence of the Past. But that is what Sheldrake seems to do. To rewrite and rewrite and rewrite his theories to get them accepted in the scientific world. :dontknow:

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 Post subject: Re: The Evolution Puzzle
PostPosted: May 28th, '13, 19:00 
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Wow, 1.5 to 2 hours each, and 6 parts, thats gunna take some digesting...

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 Post subject: Re: The Evolution Puzzle
PostPosted: May 28th, '13, 19:15 
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@Joel - don't bother mate. He doesn't actually know what is in those videos - he sees a guy who thinks before he responds and decides that means Sheldrake 'stumbles' around. Domani clearly has little idea what is in the videos or he would not post them.

Interestingly, the people who put the videos together decided Rupert Sheldrake should be INCLUDED among the greatest thinkers, but Domani posts as if this is some kind of condemnation of Sheldrake... I wonder who we should believe...? And yet HIS comment is...
Quote:
A meeting of some of the greatest scientists at the end of the 20th century


Strange, don't you think? Perhaps the makers of the video decided to get some of the (and I quote Domani) "greatest scientists at the end of the 20th century" and jus tthought they would include Sheldrake as light comedy relief?

The kind of person who judges content according to somebody's personal mannerisms is well defined in psychiatry. About 60 years back we fought a war against such people.

Domani wrote:
But that is what Sheldrake seems to do. To rewrite and rewrite and rewrite his theories to get them accepted in the scientific world.


Clearly you have little concept of Science, because actually, that is what REAL SCIENCE does.

See, that is what the proponents of the orthodox preaching from the temple of the Consensus always miss. Science is ALWAYS about change - when you learn new shit you mention it. You don't come up with 'magic' forces to make your old views right, you alter your views.

And posting 7 hours of video just doesn't cut it - all it tells almost everyone is you don't actually have thoughts you can express. Perhaps next time you could WATCH the 7 hours+ and tell us just where we might find your prejudices?

I went and found your reason for disliking this thread and I answered it. Unsurprisingly you ignored the response and chose instead to base the only comment you made about Sheldrake on your version of a book (and I note you choose NOT to acknowledge you were wrong about what I said) and his personal attributes in a public performance.

That says much more about you than it does about Sheldrake's abilities, Science or record.

As for the birds. you CHOSE to attack my comments based on (if we can believe anything you now say) an OLD book and ignored the content of what I actually said. You decided (& I am giving you the benefit of the doubt here) to ignore what I ACTUALLY posted and rely on something you clearly read a long time ago and quote it as if it somehow denied what I said.

I know it was a long time ago because back in 1997 I saw a video of Sheldrake wherein he quoted the Holland birds. You do realise that real Science moves on right? That the Consensus is the world where politicians and their aficionados try to draw lines in the sand while REAL Scientists keep replacing the sand?

Or is all that randomity a bit beyond your skills?

That whole point about World War 2 seems to have zipped right out of your view as you try to defend an attack based on information not related to what was being said.

You got so all up tight about what I said (and totally missed the 'blackbird' versus 'bluetit' stuff that you got so wrong) and now you are claiming his book must have misled you because that is what he does. Instead of bothering to notice that is what Science is meant to be (instead of the fake 'consensus' crap you try to make jokes about) you decide to make that some kind of commentary about a guy who is DOING Science.

Yep - Domani = True Believer and what we now know is you don't bother to check sources, you castigate on the basis of your personal beliefs and you fail to find the facts before you attack. yYou might also want to find a place where you can work out why you bother to come to threads like this just to be an arsehole - it is extremely revealing of you so there must be a compelling psychological reason for you continuing to do it even after you clearly acknowledge your dissatisfaction with the content.

And now you don't evenm have the excuse that your post about brains was ignored by EVERYONE, not just me.

Oh, and you don't actually know what Science is... Your posts prove it.

Now go back to the forums where people only talk about what you allow them to talk about. Seriously sunshine, why do you bother reading my thread? Glutton for punishment or do you have an agenda?

Also unsurprisingly (do you KNOW how many times I have met your ilk in real life and on the internet?) after asking about Astral Travel in apparent serious tone, your response is, rather than engage in conversation, to ridicule it and poke shit. Again that says a LOT about you and the minuscule personality you are.

Do not blame others for your lack - you clearly, from your posts on this thread alone, CHOOSE to be that person. Even when others take you at face value and respond as if you were intelligent.


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 Post subject: Re: The Evolution Puzzle
PostPosted: May 28th, '13, 19:48 
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*grins* I am watching and I am convinced Domani did NOT watch this series - Sheldrake is succinct and discusses on the same level as those with whom he sits.

Maybe he figured igf he posts 7+ hours of video nobody would check his prejudices? :D In fact, Sheldrake, a Biologist, tackles Freeman Dyson on cosmology..,
Hardly a 'stumbling' ... by Sheldrake, although it might be by Domani.. :D

It may be we can better understand the positions held by Domani from his (possibly) revealing Sig - I know you can do it, but....better you don't!

If ever there is an AUTHORITY quote, that would be it.


Last edited by Journeyman on May 28th, '13, 19:53, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Evolution Puzzle
PostPosted: May 28th, '13, 19:53 
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EB-Yep, it was a series of programs on Dutch TV, if I recall correctly somewhere mid 90's. I've seen it twice back then (re-broadcasted a year later). I think it is really worth while to see, especially the ones that focus on Oliver Sacks, Freeman Dyson, Toulmin and Dennet. Luckily somebody put it on Youtube. I will certainly look at them again to refresh the memory.

Thanks for showing your real face, JM. A very scientific and logical response, full of extremely valid facts and arguments, richly larded with empirical proof and deep insight. One wishes that all scientists were like you. :D

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 Post subject: Re: The Evolution Puzzle
PostPosted: May 28th, '13, 20:17 
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Domani wrote:
Thanks for showing your real face, JM. A very scientific and logical response, full of extremely valid facts and arguments, richly larded with empirical proof and deep insight. One wishes that all scientists were like you. :D

It's called projection - you may wish to revisit your posts and take account of what you say here. Where is the 'Science' in posting multiple videos you freely admit you haven't watched for years and using them to denigrate a guy whom the makers of the videos AND YOU admit as, and I quote YOU again,
Quote:
A meeting of some of the greatest scientists at the end of the 20th century


Perhaps you should post us the emails between you and the makers of the videos qwhere you take them to task for including Sheldrake.

If you are not going to talk Science you have a damned cheek trying to make out that others should somehow be looked down on for showing your fake responses for what they are.

Continually now you have played the man not the subject. I admit you comment about Brains was not responded to but that has now been addressed. Time to let go your prejudices and your desire to derail the thread and evolve past the emotions you are demonstrating.

Man up and talk about the subject or go find places where you can tell people what to think.

EDIT: And, actually my response was FAR MORE scientific than yours. Rather than leaving the thread until other people responded with whom you could try to reduce it in some way, I responded directly to your posts.

Posting a lengthy video which you admit you haven't bothered watching for years is the same level of response of posting an attack from a book that you haven't read for a decade or so and relying on people NOT bothering to go check to try to make your points.

YOU, not me, deal in 'consensus' opinions and hope that people will not contradict your opinions. Yuo, not me, fail to apply Scientific method and so you keep blurting out your ideas and fail over and over to substantiate them.

I have only presented my personal views along with where I got such ideas - you keep trying to show how wrong I am without ever once providing evidence as to why I might be wrong.

And not once have you presented any of what YOU might think is the case - you raised a question about brains and because nobody addressed it your next post was antagonistic.

Do you really understand what your posts in this thread say about you? Scientifically?

And remember, before you go running for Authority, (the normal response for such as you) YOU began the attack on the person, not me.

So I repeat, Man up and talk about the subject or go find places where you can tell people what to think. I am not afraid of you nor will I let you get away with shifty debating tactics. Which both your 'humorous' posts AND your video barrage clearly are.


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 Post subject: Re: The Evolution Puzzle
PostPosted: May 28th, '13, 21:20 
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Sad..

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 Post subject: Re: The Evolution Puzzle
PostPosted: May 28th, '13, 22:36 
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Domani wrote:
Sad..

Yes... but it is nice you recognise your failings.

Cheer up though, I am sure you can find someone to lead where you want to follow...

Bye-bye now... :D


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 Post subject: Re: The Evolution Puzzle
PostPosted: May 29th, '13, 09:17 
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While watching some of the videos presented above I came across an interesting couple of videos. What I have known of Rupert Sheldrake is he is a Scientist of the old kind - he goes where the evidence takes him. As a result he has set up and run experiments on plants 'screaming' in time of danger and found some that screamed when a researcher removed some shrimp from a container that had sat near the plants for some time - the research required the death of the shrimp and the plants, inadvertently left hooked up to the recording machinery, reacted just as they did when damage to the plants themselves was contemplated.

This went beyond the idea that plants react WHEN you damage them as (IIRC) they found just thinking about damaging the plants brought a reaction and (again, IIRC) this happened provided the researcher was going to carry the threat through but not if they simply contemplated the act with no follow through.

Sheldrake also ran large scale psi experiments - one such was getting volunteers to provide 4 names of people they knew then the volunteer would be put in a room with a phone and randomly (and certainly unknown to the subject) one of the 4 would be asked to call the number.

When the phone rang the volunteer had to try to name the caller. Across thousands of experiments, Sheldrake showed a 44% correct 'guess' by the volunteer - anyone with even a basic knowledge of chance would agree the random figure SHOULD be 25% and the more times you run the experiment the closer the figure should be to 25%.

Sheldrake is also the originator of the idea of Morphic Resonance (originally Morphogenetic Field) and he has done quite a lot of work developing it. He also has experimental data regarding the 'Sense of Being Stared At'

This was my knowledge of Sheldrake's contributions to Science.

Imagine my surprise when I found he had a TED talk and it had been removed from the TED channel on Youtube. You can find the reason and his response Here! along with the talk itself.

Having listened to his talk I have to say, his response is spot on - he did not do the things for which his accusers have removed the talk.

What I found in the talk is a list of the 10 Dogmas of Science in the 'modern' world. Fascinatingly I have posted in a number of forums about this list, or at least a major segment of the list. I haven't (that I recall) said anything about the nature of constants, the amount of matter and energy, nor much about the mechanistic Medicine.

But all the others have been a part of my posting for several years, and you have only my word for it, but I have never heard Sheldrake on this subject before.

Here are his 10 Basic Dogmas of Modern Science

1. Nature is mechanical – the universe and life is just machinery. Richard Dawkins says we are just lumbering robots with a genetically programmed brain directing things.

2. Matter is unconscious – the universe and everything in it is unconscious and shouldn’t be in people. Philosophy of mind has been trying to prove WE are not really conscious either.

3. The Laws of Nature are fixed – as are Constants. Between 1928 and 1945, the speed of light dropped and then increased again.

4. The total amount of Matter and Energy are always the same.

5. Nature is purposeless – neither nature nor Evolution has purpose

6. Biological heredity is material – everything you inherit is in your genes, in epigenetic modification or cytoplasmic inheritance.

7. Memories are stored inside your brain as material traces.

8. Your mind is inside your head. All your consciousness is activity in the brain and nothing more.

9. Psychic phenomena such as telepathy are impossible.

10. Mechanistic Medicine is the only kind that really works.

I do like this quote of his given during the talk:
Terrence McKenna said, “Modern Science is based on the principle, ‘Give us one free miracle and we will explain the rest” – the Big Bang is the ‘free miracle’ – the appearance of all the matter and energy in the Universe and all the laws that govern it from nothing at all in a single instant.

I would add another dogma -
11. Redshift is only about velocity, that it is the Cosmological equivalent of the Doppler effect.

Have a listen to his talk - the stuff about Constants is not only fascinating, you can run across the Metrologist's reasoning often in various fields of 'modern' Science.


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