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 Post subject: Re: The Evolution Puzzle
PostPosted: May 28th, '13, 02:09 
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Question for the OP, JM.

Given Rupert's input about conscious existence without the need for a physical body, I had immediately to think about what you said about astral travels. I got the impression that you might have made some of these astral trips yourself. Could you level your experience in that field with us? It would be interesting to learn about how this is done and how one can achieve such a level of development.

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 Post subject: Re: The Evolution Puzzle
PostPosted: May 28th, '13, 03:35 
Domani wrote:
It would be interesting to learn about how this is done and how one can achieve such a level of development.

There have been various drugs through the years which purportedly can achieve astral travel.... :D


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 Post subject: Re: The Evolution Puzzle
PostPosted: May 28th, '13, 03:38 
Domani wrote:
The room was very quiet for a while. :)

Was that because you were slipping in and out of consciousness.... :D


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 Post subject: Re: The Evolution Puzzle
PostPosted: May 28th, '13, 09:05 
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Domani wrote:
As an example I would like to introduce a former girlfriend, who is a true believer and follower of the women's liberation movement. One of her "well thought of and intelligent" statements was that women are more intelligent than men, because they can do more things at the same moment ( multitasking).
I recently read that new research had debunked the idea that women are better multitaskers than men. :shock: Debunked or not, they do seem to be able to spread their brains across quite a few concurrent tasks. :dontknow:

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 Post subject: Re: The Evolution Puzzle
PostPosted: May 28th, '13, 09:09 
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Domani wrote:
"The brain itself is another issue, and there are many such - the brain in humans gives us an unbeatable (so far) advantage, but only AFTER you have it. Evolution is a process whereby resources must be efficiently distributed to maximise survival and breeding opportunity."

It's a matter of perspective, I say. Truly, one can question the assumed advantage that a human brain supposed to give. Although all humans have a brain, only few seem to have some advantage of it. And considering the efficient use of resources, I must come to the conclusion that such is not the case with the human brain and so the survival and breeding opportunities are for the largest part missed. Ergo, creation and evolution should be considered as another poor attempt of using the human brain to understand the world around us. I stick to pure randomness of events that have no meaning in a longer time span than a human's life. :D

I don't know if we can take the lack of use of the Mind as anything other than a comment about our society itself. :D In a society where we seem to deliberately dumb down almost everyone born by constant programming to NOT express and create to OUR abilities and instead run programming to make them conform and learn to obey Authority we might be better looking at the few who DO perform as examples of how magnificent the Mind actually is.

I say Mind rather than brain because everyone uses all their brain - the problem is we have had Brain and Mind defined as the same thing. Psychology runs on an assumption that the physical structure is all there is and so if we fix neurons or the chemical balance we fix the person. Behavioural psychology might seem like an exception but if you look at what THEY think they are doing you find they are still seeing it as physical, they are just using behaviour to reprogram the brain instead of drugs, shock or surgery.

From my PoV, Mind is the field generated by the brain. I like Edward de Bono's view of it as a landscape, modified over time by a rain of data coming in, with hills and valleys created by the associations made. Such a scenario even gives us a useful way to view the 2 ways we 'know' things - one is walking the hills and valleys, gathering data to provide an answer, but the other is similar to rising above the landscape and being able to see the shape of it and find answers from that. In the first we can explain how we came to an answer; the 2nd leaves us often wondering how we got to an answer that is correct.

Now think back to your schooling - how often were you told you had to show the workings? Getting the right answer might get you one mark out of 5 or 10, but to pass you had to show the step-by-step workings. Like the Spotlight programming, done early enough such programming makes it extremely difficult for anyone to rise above the norm and often makes it hard for them to even BE the norm.

Many children struggle at school not because they are in the slightest way dumb, but because that 'norm' is not how they work.

The brain is massively overkill for what it needs to do. It is so complex some theoreticians think it is not only the most complex thing in the Universe, it is the most complex it is possible to be. The estimated possible connections exceeds the number of atoms in the known Universe (well, back in the 80's anyway) And yet, the brain cannot be the entire complex that makes a human.

Ever seen those MRI's that purport to show people thinking? Have you seen how the researcher points at the part that recalls (say) ice cream and shows how whenever desserts are recalled that same area(s) lights up?

Did you ever wonder where the memories are?

Think of it like a computer. Every time you try to perform a similar operation, the same piece of the OS 'lights up' to run it. But the OS doesn't store the data - that's out on the hard disk. In the same way, the same neurons firing to recall similar events, experiences or memories is NOT evidence that is where the memories are, it is evidence that you are seeing the recall mechanism for that type of experience etc.

And we can know that because of the associations we make, which causes other areas to light up. If one person has a good memory of eating ice cream and for another the memory is associated with pain, different secondary areas light up. The memories are not being stored in those physical units - they can'[t be because those physical units turn 'off' when they aren't being used - so where would the memories go?

IMO the memories are stored in the hologram field that is the Mind. They get added to the hills valleys and lakes of Mind, altering the shape and lay of the land. We assign them to specific valleys when we associate them, either as we transfer the short-term 'Spotlight' recordings to long term or when we process Floodlight data in dreams.

It may just be I don't WANT to think of it all as being purposeless, but for me, there is too much that can't really be addressed by a Universe of meaning-free accidents. For a start, assuming such a scenario is leading to an ever-increasingly complicated view of things. Cosmologists have to keep inventing magic to explain why their accidental development doesn't lead to the Universe we see. Observations are enshrined as unalterable truths even when they make everything else impossible.

If I have a belief it is that when you understand something, it simplifies. Again, think of school. How complex was algebra or calculus or even cooking, before you understood what was going on? And once you did, (usually the year AFTER you were required to pass an exam showing your grasp of the subject :D) how simple was it all?


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 Post subject: Re: The Evolution Puzzle
PostPosted: May 28th, '13, 09:21 
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Domani wrote:
Question for the OP, JM.

Given Rupert's input about conscious existence without the need for a physical body, I had immediately to think about what you said about astral travels. I got the impression that you might have made some of these astral trips yourself. Could you level your experience in that field with us? It would be interesting to learn about how this is done and how one can achieve such a level of development.

You are correct, I have 'travelled' and it is an eye opener... well, not literally cos that pulls you straight back in.

I've done it 4 times that I can safely call astral travel - there are quite a few more times when I am fairly sure I have achieved it but I wasn't lucid, so I can't be sure it wasn't just dreaming. 3 times it was an almost unnoticed exit; suddenly I was 'out' and aware that my body was behind me and I was moving away from it. The last time was strange - I 'peeled' out of my body. Best way to describe it is it was like 2 halves of a zipper coming undone.

The astral is strange - it doesn't fit easily into our world view, partly because it is difficult to find any two people who have the same experiences, and often each trip is radically different. The comment above about space travel could easily apply to what some people can achieve in astral. Mine have been far more mundane, seeming to stay within a familiar, if slightly different, world. Maybe I simply don't have the imagination to see what others do or maybe there is a reason I keep wandering within familiar regions.

The last time I found myself coming to a city - it was (I am fairly sure) in Indonesia and I knew I had to find an old woman who lived there and ask her something. I found my way across the city and found her but then I blanked' and the next thing I knew I was outside her place and trying to find my way back across the city to some specific place. It may have been to where I arrived in the city or somewhere else, I don't know.

I could speak the language, as in I was able to ask those there for directions etc. but I 'knew' I was not of their race.

Then I felt a distinct 'thud' that felt like I had fallen from a couple of cms above my mattress and I was 'awake' - I was aware of being back in my body and a couple of hours had passed. I know about the time because I was using hemisync from an MP3 player and that was how much had been played.

Another problem is trying to remember what happens in astral - it takes practice to 'transfer' the memory from the astral body to the physical - otherwise you lose it when you are back. One way to train this is to teach your Self to wake after dreams and write down the dream - once that becomes a habit, apparently recalling astral becomes more of a reflex. I don't have that habit yet and so I have to frantically try to recall all that happened in the first few seconds after I arrive back.


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 Post subject: Re: The Evolution Puzzle
PostPosted: May 28th, '13, 09:40 
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Is it evidence of intelligence to tell one's girlfriend such things Domani? Or would intelligence have kept such thoughts on the inside? :D

I think all life has a form of consciousness, which IMO means there is awareness as well. What a brain gives us is a Mind and the Mind is a tool with which we can interact with what I call The Solid.

My reason for thinking has to do with fields. Mos people have heard of, if not seen examples of, Kirlian fields that surround/infuse anything living. Kirlian uses high frequency electrical fields to make visible, on photographs, a rather strange phenomenon.

Harry Oldifeld's fields appear to NOT be Kirlian fields - he manages to observe them by imaging how those fields alter the light around living things.

(BTW, the 'aura' photos you can buy at places like Mind, Body Spirit shows are fake - they are colours assigned to galvanic responses. pretty but AFAIK, just fakes to take your dollars)

Mind is also a field, and one that again is different to either Kirlian or Oldfield versions.

My operating scenario is that we are Consciousness and we cannot directly change The Solid. I think we operate via a series of increasingly lower frequency fields that eventually let us run a body and we use the body to experience The Solid just as we use a car to drive to far away places.

And just like good drivers, we come to think of the vehicle as 'Us' - an identification not at all discouraged by TPTB, because it makes us more easily manipulable.

Sheldrake's Morphogentic fields opens up a wider view - I mentioned the feel of the Mob mind - IMO that is another field. Perhaps original sin was the 'fall' from the group mind that was individuality - look at a family of Gorillas sitting watching the camera in Africa - it isn't hard to get an impression you are looking at one Being, not a whole bunch of individuals.

Add all this to a Universe that is not actually here.

The Vedic view is we live in the dreams of Brahma, that the entire Universe comes into being because S/He dreams and that when s/he wakes it all goes away until the next time s/he dreams. When you follow the current research down into planck lengths and time slices, it doesn't really matter which theory you follow, they all seem to lead to the idea that matter and energy aren't really present. From the quantum foam popping up occasional slightly persistent artefacts to strings looping odd and even times, to splinters of Dimensions peeling off a Brane collision, we cannot seem to find anything actually solid.

It is not at all difficult to wonder if the Universe is a playing field being 'created' by Consciousness in which to experience itself.

And once you begin to think about the difference between Awareness and Knowledge, IMO the glimmers of a purpose emerge.


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 Post subject: Re: The Evolution Puzzle
PostPosted: May 28th, '13, 09:51 
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To bring it all together...

I think all the puzzles of Evolution I have heard of can be resolved if we conceive of Life being able to organise itself. Just as we see in the Grandmother research, we appear to be able to alter our physical self according to the world around us - like choosing a 4WD because we're heading into the bush but getting a Barina because we will only be travelling in city streets.

The Punctuated aspects make sense - the world changes and the morphogenetic field that is a shrew makes changes to compensate. The DNA comes into this because even in the grandmother research it is apparent the changes can only be made in which parts of the template to exploit or suppress - new templates would appear to take reproduction to achieve.

The butterfly 'eyes' make sense if there is a species-level field, as do the bluetit responses. Even the chimp washing of mussels from sandy beaches behaviour spreading so rapidly to other tribes makes sense.

We can even make sense of the human preference to believe in God - imagine how big a human-level morphogenetic field must have seemed to those who first learned to drop from within its presence? The first individuals would have come away with many conflicting feelings about their new world.

Are brains necessary for Consciousness? I doubt it. I doubt even Minds are - download and have a read of Robert Monroe's experience in Astral travel - they make a fascinating read, particularly when you realise he wasn't selling them. It's a lot more difficult (for me anyway) to accept as factual the stories told by those who want to charge me for them or for their 'path' discovered by those experiences.

But I think Consciousness is essential for there to be life and maybe it is possible that everything living is on a journey upwards. Mind you it is also possible the 'lesser' forms are here as props for us to experience - like the neurons of Consciousness, made 'real' by our fields so we can play among them and discover ourselves or maybe, discover our Self.

And that's what I mean by an holistic view... :D


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 Post subject: Re: The Evolution Puzzle
PostPosted: May 28th, '13, 10:56 
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Addendum:

The Fields of Life view also makes sense when we look at why humans are different. We have broken from the enfolding of the group Mind - sure we can still slip back into it. In fact the ease with which indi-bloody-viduals (Jacko had a good phrase there :D) can become card-carrying members of mobs, even ones that prior to joining they would have run a mile from, can be seen in perspective.

Another piece of evidence is the so-called God Helmet that uses magnetic fields to induce a feeling of 'Presence' that most people then call God - I wondered for years why people would have such a capability at all. Ditto with the tricks they play to convince a Mind it is outside the body - what on Earth could be an evolutionary advantage in such things?

But as hangovers from an older system, they make far more sense.

Even the glimmerings of psychic powers we see (another Sheldrake area) have a structure to make sense of them if we are Fields in Bodies. Fields do not have closely defined edges, they kinda fade out over distance.

Check out Sheldrake's evidence for telepathy or something very similar. There are 2 ways to prove something in Science - one is the gigantic event, the atomic bomb that is undeniable in any sense. But the other is more subtle - perhaps the effect called Cold Fusion might be closer. This is where you get minor effects but have lots of events.

Sheldrake has an experiment across many thousands of cases that is running at 44% where random chance would insist on 25% - and like gambling, the more events the closer you get to the exact odds. Sheldrake's 44% is as significant (or more) than one telepath who can call 100% of the deck of cards.

Most people think Rhine did not find evidence of psi effects; most people are wrong. He certainly did find such evidence, but because it wasn't the blinding flash-bang of a nuclear event it got similar treatment to Pns and Fleischmann.


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 Post subject: Re: The Evolution Puzzle
PostPosted: May 28th, '13, 12:23 
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RupertofOZ wrote:
Domani wrote:
The room was very quiet for a while. :)

Was that because you were slipping in and out of consciousness.... :D

Erm, I'm afraid so! :laughing3:

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 Post subject: Re: The Evolution Puzzle
PostPosted: May 28th, '13, 13:37 
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Domani wrote:
RupertofOZ wrote:
Domani wrote:
The room was very quiet for a while. :)

Was that because you were slipping in and out of consciousness.... :D

Erm, I'm afraid so! :laughing3:


And you know what? I had the strangest experience in that state. I remember now, that I must have had an astral trip to the Great Chinese Wall and while there had a meeting with Lao Tzu, the Dalai Lama and Lou the Palingboer. We sat down and discussed the meaning of life, although non of us spoke the other ones language. Than, suddenly while I opened my mouth to say something, I got pulled back into my body that was about to hit the ground after my former girlfriend (a heavy weight Muay Thai champion) must have replied to my arguments. I came to my senses when my body hit the ground with a big 'thadumb'(I'm a former heavy weight BK visitor, now in ultra heavy weight class).

I also remember to had a similar experience in a Greek restaurant, after 2 bottles of Ouzo. I had this hours long conversation with some Greeks about their country and culture in....Greek! And I've never managed to learn that language, except for some greeting words from Lonely Planet. Next thing I knew was waking up in my bed with a splitting headache. I realized this must have been an out of body experience, since I never could have left my bed in that state! :D

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 Post subject: Re: The Evolution Puzzle
PostPosted: May 28th, '13, 17:39 
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A meeting of some of the greatest scientists at the end of the 20th century. Staged by initiative of Dutch TV station VPRO. Rupert Sheldrake stumbles around, too in some of the episodes. Very interesting documentary.

Part 1


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Last edited by Domani on May 28th, '13, 18:08, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Evolution Puzzle
PostPosted: May 28th, '13, 17:43 
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Part 2



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 Post subject: Re: The Evolution Puzzle
PostPosted: May 28th, '13, 17:45 
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Part 3



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 Post subject: Re: The Evolution Puzzle
PostPosted: May 28th, '13, 17:46 
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Part 4



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