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PostPosted: Nov 1st, '13, 09:50 
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Time to compress our thinking about the NBN

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/comment/blogs/the ... z2jM00X7bR



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Are we really the smart country? Or are we just dumb jerks lucky enough to occupy a hunk of rock whose geographic isolation makes us astonishingly difficult to invade, with massive stores of natural resources, the perfection of British-led democracy, and all under eternal warmth and blossom?

I want to think smart.

Thinking laterally, wouldn't it make more sense to just invest 20 billion dollars into developing the world's finest compression software?

We employ the world's best programmers sourced here and overseas to work in our newly created research centre.

Something like America's Manhattan Project in World War II that created a way to annihilate the world in just six years.

But instead of incinerating human beings, we want something that can squash a terabyte file into, say, 100 megabytes or a movie into a one megabyte file without any loss of resolution.


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PostPosted: Nov 1st, '13, 11:08 
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Old news and the solution is already here, just not used. Read this about it http://ticc.uvt.nl/~pspronck/sloot.html

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PostPosted: Nov 1st, '13, 11:49 
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not used domani? i think you mean not possible.

The idea of spending 20 billion on uber compression is insane and cant have been thought up by anyone who knows anything at all about computers....

just read the article.
why do they let journalists write about things they make up in thier own head?
this guy doesnt have a clue.


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PostPosted: Nov 1st, '13, 12:29 
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Not quite insane. Just not yet practical.

One such scenario would be to set up a system where the data is assigned a number based on content, like a 'check digit' used to certify a file download. Each data file would have a unique number as stated in the article, but rather than assign a fraction or try to use that number as such, there are a number of math transforms that could reduce it to manageable size and while it may be impossible to get the accuracy in a notch on a stick, with math we can have any level of accuracy we wish.

One such way to do it might be to make the number into and exponent of (say) 10 - for 100, the exponent is 2, for 1,000,000 it is 6 and for 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 it is 18 - you can see the economies coming in. So a movie might have a number like 15.1654132 which is 10^15.1654132.

For truly large numbers there is an issue with the computing power to do the translation into and out of the component system, but for more practical uses, it should be possible for even a digital computer to do it, and a quantum processor manipulating qBits should have no problems.


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PostPosted: Nov 3rd, '13, 12:18 
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Yavimaya wrote:
not used domani? i think you mean not possible.

The idea of spending 20 billion on uber compression is insane and cant have been thought up by anyone who knows anything at all about computers....

just read the article.
why do they let journalists write about things they make up in thier own head?
this guy doesnt have a clue.

Not possible? Did you read the link I posted about Sloot's system? There are even video's of demonstration and explanations of that system. I lost track of it some time ago because of other interests, so don't know where they are now. Between your opinion and that of Roel Pieper, guess I'm leaning towards his. If you don't mind.

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PostPosted: Nov 3rd, '13, 16:12 
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The problem with any of these systems of compression is that it then puts any and all burden that you are removing from the network onto the computer used to compress and decompress the files.

better compression requires more processing power to decompress.


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PostPosted: Nov 3rd, '13, 18:24 
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You didn't read the link, I guess?

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PostPosted: Nov 3rd, '13, 18:40 
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Yavimaya wrote:
The problem with any of these systems of compression is that it then puts any and all burden that you are removing from the network onto the computer used to compress and decompress the files.

better compression requires more processing power to decompress.


So you mean that at the moment it is not feasible? But with leaps in processing power all the time, will it take long before it isn't such a difficult task for even consumer machines?

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PostPosted: Nov 4th, '13, 05:23 
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Tom, yea more powerful computers will be able to do it faster, but if that faster computer didnt have to do that extra work, it could be doing other things.... using extra power to do something is still using the power, no matter how much extra you may think you have.
as this compression gets better, programs will still get bigger, there is always something coming out to use the extra power, throwing compression on top is just extra unneeded burden.
This wouldnt be so terrible when you are deliberately decompressing a download, but when you are streaming something while doing other things, you may see noticable lag in the stream - which would be fixed by less compression and better internet.


Domani, ive read some of that link, but i dont feel like wasting the next half hour of my life reading a "story", there isnt any science on that webpage.


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PostPosted: Nov 4th, '13, 09:43 
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Yavimaya wrote:
Domani, ive read some of that link, but i dont feel like wasting the next half hour of my life reading a "story", there isnt any science on that webpage.

It costed me 5 minutes only to read and understand it, no scientific explanation was needed. But maybe that is because my knowledge about the subject is not so extensive as yours. Maybe it is a good idea not to wipe something from the table just because you don't understand it? Very unscientific I think.

JM, I see that you too got intrigued by the idea and started to play a little with it. It would be great if somebody could reproduce Stool's system, but it will not be an easy task. Pieper spent a lot of money and time on it and wasn't able to do it. But then, he and his staff could have been blinded by presumptions that a so called layman won't have. After all Stool was a TV technician, not a scientist.

Knowing that imagination is more important than knowledge, one could ask "If this is true, how would it work then?". I fail to see how a quest for knowledge could be a waste of time.

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PostPosted: Nov 4th, '13, 11:16 
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lol its ok domani, you guys can have your fun, i wont stop you.

its just a fools system to try for better compression INSTEAD of increasing networks rates, especially considering which is easier and probably end up cheaper.... not to mention that unless this compression was developed open source, it would give a huge company even more of a monopoly on the internet.


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PostPosted: Nov 4th, '13, 14:37 
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Can you support that statement with some solid scientific arguments?

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PostPosted: Nov 4th, '13, 18:46 
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@Yavimaya - you have an underlying assumption you arde running with... You presume the current paradigm is what we must deal with. But the current paradigm is just what we know now (in the best interpretation, and as soon as that changes, the possibilities go asymptotic.

A computer running qBits can outperform (in theory) every binary computer currently running. Not because it is bigger opr runs more power but because 'maybe' becomes a significant factor. A lack of wanting to use quantum computers has led directly to our current BS situation about AGW - they CAN'T model climate so they choose parameters that suit their desired goal and run that and present it as somehow more real than the climate we see around us.

A quantum computer could model climate.

So, how Science works is NOT by saying "consensus says this" but by how we can move past "consensus" and find new ways to see things.

And we could use binary computers to transcribe powers of 10 (or 2 or 8 or whatever we choose - did you ever wonder why our co-ordinate system runs on 6's and 12's?) at very rapid rates and the network impact would be extremely minor. How long does it take to download a movies at full Blue-ray (circa 23GB or 23x10^12 bytes) instead of sending 10^22.1564136?

Your concerns about improving the network suddenly become almost meaningless as the network traffic reduces by a factor of at least billions.

Or we could go back to the paradigm of the '80's and have dumb terminals on desks and build multi-storey buildings to house massive computers to do basic processing. The ubiquity of powerful PC's on home desks would tend to suggest we found a better way than making monolithic switching computers and sending massive amounts of data over increasingly large pipes.

Imagine an NBN that was NOT sending 5GB porn files to 20 million terminals but instead sent a few MB that then got translated on each terminal? Imagine how fast the internet would run if we reduced file downlaods by a factor of 1 billion?


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PostPosted: Nov 4th, '13, 19:11 
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I thought quantum computers didn't exist yet?

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PostPosted: Nov 5th, '13, 02:21 
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As far as I am aware they are only in the lab at this stage. They are coming though. A lot of work being done on them at the Australian National University as well as elsewhere around the globe of course.

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