All times are UTC + 8 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 210 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 14  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Feb 3rd, '14, 10:58 
Offline
Legend Member
Legend Member
User avatar

Joined: Jun 22nd, '11, 17:01
Posts: 527
Gender: Male
Location: Central West NSW
ps this forum is awesome and is probably my 2nd most frequented website, after google :thumbright: I switched across from the BYAP forum to here in 2011 cause this forum seemed more open minded

But there is one trend here I don't like which is the attitude of 'its all here, period.' kinda thing, yet this AP game is constantly changing as it's still a fledgling industry, and we are all learning new things about AP every year.

If you don't believe this, just look back on some really old AP systems (eg from 4+ years ago) and you'll see how we've adopted new and better techniques over the years.

Can we not keep an open mind and just discuss all elements of AP even if some of it is influenced from info off other websites, with the aim of improving our knowledge/techniques/systems and our enjoyment of them?

I know, some threads have been done to death, and often things seem to be repeated in new threads.. that can be tiring

EDIT: "A number of posters on this and other forums have over the years suggested that solids removal of some sort was essential."
For the record, I am not one of these people.. but I do see the benefit of removal in some bigger setups


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
    Advertisement
 
PostPosted: Feb 3rd, '14, 12:45 
Offline
Legend Member
Legend Member
User avatar

Joined: Nov 19th, '12, 18:36
Posts: 770
Gender: Male
Are you human?: yes
Location: AUSTRALIA, QLD, BRISBANE
Personally I am starting to think that media in beds is ONLY good for small systems.. and also not a cheaper option when considering the cost of expanded clay ( i know gravel is cheaper but that's something you only want to move once). I would completely agree that for the simplest system media beds are the way to go.. but you don't have to expand far, size wise to see that they are more hassle and expensive on anything but small systems. I would love to see a thread about 'what size should my system be where I am better of going DWC' :D
I am going to go hide in a corner now :wink:

_________________
IBC Greenhouse System http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=14429
Wicking Bed http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=17747


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Feb 3rd, '14, 13:13 
Offline
Seriously, this cant be healthy.
Seriously, this cant be healthy.
User avatar

Joined: Feb 23rd, '07, 03:48
Posts: 6715
Location: Lyonville Victoria
Gender: Male
Are you human?: yes
Location: Lyonville
jono81 wrote:
Yup, all good Stuart.

I guess I'm wanting to go bigger than your average backyard setup though.. so I'm constantly looking for ways to do that most effectively, and with the least amount of maintenance


Least maintenance = GBs
More maintenance = Solids removal

Bigger in terms of veg = no solids removal
Bigger in terms of fish and solids retention are not mutually exclusive.

How big is big? My ft is going to be stocked with about 350 trout in the next week or so and I could go for more if I wanted to. Mind you I have 24KL of GBs.

_________________
Grow more with less


http://www.FishFarmers.com.au
https://www.facebook.com/fisharmers?ref=aymt_homepage_panel
http://hedgerowfarm.com.au/
https://www.facebook.com/HedgerowFarmVictoria/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Feb 3rd, '14, 13:15 
Offline
A posting God
A posting God

Joined: Nov 10th, '12, 09:27
Posts: 2667
Gender: Male
Are you human?: maybe
Location: Vic
Ive moved my scoria around multiple times, no worse than expanded clay, but you do need to use your brains when working with it.
i agree that the whole "media bed only" attitude around here is a terrible one especially considering the "dont act like this thread" in the newbie corner, most people with the bed only attitude seem to be a watered down version of that.

we should be open to new ideas, not stupid ideas, but new and different ones.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Feb 3rd, '14, 13:28 
Offline
Legend Member
Legend Member
User avatar

Joined: Nov 19th, '12, 18:36
Posts: 770
Gender: Male
Are you human?: yes
Location: AUSTRALIA, QLD, BRISBANE
Stuart Chignell wrote:
jono81 wrote:
Yup, all good Stuart.

I guess I'm wanting to go bigger than your average backyard setup though.. so I'm constantly looking for ways to do that most effectively, and with the least amount of maintenance


Least maintenance = GBs
More maintenance = Solids removal

Bigger in terms of veg = no solids removal
Bigger in terms of fish and solids retention are not mutually exclusive.

How big is big? My ft is going to be stocked with about 350 trout in the next week or so and I could go for more if I wanted to. Mind you I have 24KL of GBs.


GBs least maintenance...
I am not so sure as I spend a lot of time getting clay balls out of roots in my plants when harvesting, not to mention picking up the balls as they end up on my greenhouse floor. Also I just had an ant/aphid infestation and I had to flood the beds and I am still trying to get rid of them all...media makes for better insect nests, both desirable and undesirable ones (especially in tropical/sub tropical where there isn't a real cold snap to kill them)

and..
removing solids from my RFF is a 5 minute a week job of course if I didn't have media beds I would have to add some kind of mat filter as well i guess... but they don't seem to be difficult to clean either since you just lift them out and give them a whack.

and..
just because there is filtering done outside of media beds doesn't mean that you have to throw out those solids.. mine drain to a mineralization tank as part of the RFF cleaning and then sits there with an air stone until next week when I empty the RFF again and then I pump it back into the system.

_________________
IBC Greenhouse System http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=14429
Wicking Bed http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=17747


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Feb 3rd, '14, 13:32 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Nov 6th, '11, 10:04
Posts: 5100
Gender: Male
Are you human?: Humans err, I Arrr!
Location: Chula Vista, CA, USA
I disagree that there is a media bed only attitude on this website. I certainly steer beginners that direction, as DWC and NFT can be more challenging. However posters like Ryan Chatterson certainly prove that DWC is a very effective operating model. Keep in mind that Ryan has drum filters, and a lab, and AP is what he does for his livelihood. He is an inspiration to all of us. Those of us who don't have the hours to devote to AP look for more maintenance free options. That means lower stocking densities, so media beds, which Stuart pointed out are the least maintenance, can be the only filters. People who also do a bit of soil gardening might like to add an RFF filter, so they can incorporate the waste into the soil too. The idea is to set people up for success based on the amount of daily interaction they they are prepared to invest.

_________________
What answers I can question for you?

My Patio System

My Indoor System

No single drop of rain believes it is responsible for the flood.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Feb 3rd, '14, 13:51 
Offline
Legend Member
Legend Member
User avatar

Joined: Nov 19th, '12, 18:36
Posts: 770
Gender: Male
Are you human?: yes
Location: AUSTRALIA, QLD, BRISBANE
I agree that media beds can be great and I think I would keep at least some in my system because i think it gives stability to the system.
What I don't always agree with is when someone ads a RFF or whatever and straight away get jumped on about how much maintenance it will be and how nutrients will get lost (not necessarily true).. but then we don't hear about how much maintenance it can be by using media that gets root bound etc.. the balance isn't always there... and not everyone is a beginner.. and if they are hopefully they are reading the threads that scream "start here" and the IBC of AP.

_________________
IBC Greenhouse System http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=14429
Wicking Bed http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=17747


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Feb 3rd, '14, 14:10 
Offline
Seriously, this cant be healthy.
Seriously, this cant be healthy.
User avatar

Joined: Feb 23rd, '07, 03:48
Posts: 6715
Location: Lyonville Victoria
Gender: Male
Are you human?: yes
Location: Lyonville
Yavimaya wrote:
Ive moved my scoria around multiple times, no worse than expanded clay, but you do need to use your brains when working with it.
i agree that the whole "media bed only" attitude around here is a terrible one especially considering the


Why is it terrible to recommend GBs as the sole means of filtration? Especially for new people this style of system is a good one to start with because it is so simple and, when setup following the instructions on Joel's website, has been demonstrated to be incredibly reliable and maintenance free.

Quote:
"dont act like this thread" in the newbie corner, most people with the bed only attitude seem to be a watered down version of that.


I don't understand what you mean by this.

Quote:
we should be open to new ideas, not stupid ideas, but new and different ones.


I think I am very open to new ideas but they have to be demonstrated to be good ideas or even better superior ideas. Solids removal has its place for particular applications and particular production goals but just as people should be open to the idea of including solids removal they should also be open to leaving the solids in place.

In order to sensibly choose between the two methodologies you need to understand the pros and cons of both. A person new to AP may wish to thoroughly research both methods before starting a system but I would recommend they go with the simpler method first because they can always add the complexity of solids removal later especially if they start with a moderate sized system that they will want to expand later.

_________________
Grow more with less


http://www.FishFarmers.com.au
https://www.facebook.com/fisharmers?ref=aymt_homepage_panel
http://hedgerowfarm.com.au/
https://www.facebook.com/HedgerowFarmVictoria/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Feb 3rd, '14, 14:17 
Offline
Seriously, this cant be healthy.
Seriously, this cant be healthy.
User avatar

Joined: Feb 23rd, '07, 03:48
Posts: 6715
Location: Lyonville Victoria
Gender: Male
Are you human?: yes
Location: Lyonville
tom77 wrote:
GBs least maintenance...
I am not so sure as I spend a lot of time getting clay balls out of roots in my plants when harvesting, not to mention picking up the balls as they end up on my greenhouse floor. Also I just had an ant/aphid infestation and I had to flood the beds and I am still trying to get rid of them all...media makes for better insect nests, both desirable and undesirable ones (especially in tropical/sub tropical where there isn't a real cold snap to kill them)


Many people do not bother removing roots from their gravel.

I agree with you about sending people to the IBCs of AP.

There is no right way to do AP. There are lots of wrong ways though and keeping things simple when you start is a good idea.

Having said that there are many ways that have pros and cons and even when a design has significant cons it still may be the best choice for a particular person's AP system because of their particular requirements and/or limitations.

_________________
Grow more with less


http://www.FishFarmers.com.au
https://www.facebook.com/fisharmers?ref=aymt_homepage_panel
http://hedgerowfarm.com.au/
https://www.facebook.com/HedgerowFarmVictoria/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Feb 3rd, '14, 14:21 
Offline
A posting God
A posting God

Joined: Nov 10th, '12, 09:27
Posts: 2667
Gender: Male
Are you human?: maybe
Location: Vic
I didnt name names, if you feel that you are not open to new ideas enough to defend yourself, then what can i say about the first part of your statement?

The whole thing about the media beds isnt that people shouldnt use them, its the attitude that they are "all that is needed" and "lets use that as the first answer to every question whenever i can" attitude that a few people have.
But as we all know, not everyone has the same situation and not everyone wants to setup a single IBC with growbed on top. People need different setups, different setups need different ideas, this place is great for information, the peope here are almost anti-ideas, sometimes.

Read the thread in the newbie corner - "how not to act" or similar name.


Last edited by Yavimaya on Feb 3rd, '14, 14:35, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Feb 3rd, '14, 14:23 
Offline
A posting God
A posting God

Joined: Nov 10th, '12, 09:27
Posts: 2667
Gender: Male
Are you human?: maybe
Location: Vic
You snuck that post in because i had to go serve 5 customers while typing, but what you have said in your last post is exactly what i am saying, different people need different things, simply saying "do it this way" or "start with this simple design" isnt a helpful attitude.

It may be the correct thing to do, but it stiffles ideas.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Feb 3rd, '14, 14:30 
Offline
A posting God
A posting God

Joined: Nov 10th, '12, 09:27
Posts: 2667
Gender: Male
Are you human?: maybe
Location: Vic
Ronmaggi wrote:
The idea is to set people up for success based on the amount of daily interaction they they are prepared to invest.



Find me one post in one thread where that question is asked. :P
the fact is no one asks, they just assume that filtering with media xbeds is the best way to go.

pretty much any thread that has the word RFF in it has someone arguing that the RFF isnt needed and media beds should be fine..... without asking why they want the RFF, etc, etc.

Not so much a "forum attitude" but more a "high level user" attitude. Which is in itself a 2 sided coin, Joel is probably the largest proponent of media only and has lots of experience, but then tells everyone that he doesnt test, never tests, never uses this or that, never this and that, etc.
So in that case you have to say, well it works, he is right, but when it doesnt is he the guy that will fix it for me? if he has never done this or that, how is he supposed to know its not a better way, etc.


Oh, i never said media beds shouldnt be used either (ive been on the net ong enough to know ateast one person will have taken what i said to be "never use media beds")


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Feb 3rd, '14, 14:47 
Offline
Legend Member
Legend Member
User avatar

Joined: Nov 19th, '12, 18:36
Posts: 770
Gender: Male
Are you human?: yes
Location: AUSTRALIA, QLD, BRISBANE
It is funny that the 'you don't need extra filtration' or 'all you need is media beds' seems to be used almost as a required disclaimer whenever someone mentions any non media form of filtration..just in case a newbie may be in the thread :D
Even funnier when you realise the point comes up in a thread like this 'SLO not drawing solids.'.. since a newbie probably doesn't even know what SLO is.
And this thread seems to have deviated from the original topic a bit... again

_________________
IBC Greenhouse System http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=14429
Wicking Bed http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=17747


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Feb 3rd, '14, 16:02 
Offline
A posting God
A posting God

Joined: Nov 10th, '12, 09:27
Posts: 2667
Gender: Male
Are you human?: maybe
Location: Vic
tom77 wrote:
And this thread seems to have deviated from the original topic a bit... again

Im sorry, i do that in every forum i visit, somehow.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Feb 3rd, '14, 16:08 
Offline
Legend Member
Legend Member
User avatar

Joined: Nov 19th, '12, 18:36
Posts: 770
Gender: Male
Are you human?: yes
Location: AUSTRALIA, QLD, BRISBANE
Yavimaya wrote:
tom77 wrote:
And this thread seems to have deviated from the original topic a bit... again

Im sorry, i do that in every forum i visit, somehow.


I wasn't pointing fingers, I am probably just as much to blame :D

_________________
IBC Greenhouse System http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=14429
Wicking Bed http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=17747


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 210 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 14  Next

All times are UTC + 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Portal by phpBB3 Portal © phpBB Türkiye
[ Time : 0.105s | 16 Queries | GZIP : Off ]