IBC System in New Hampshire, USA - MEMBER HELP/INPUT PLEASE!

gtmylo

Greetings all,

Have been accumulating the parts for my aquaponics system while waiting for approval from the state to import my tilapia breeder colony. I live in New Hampshire and winters here can get quite cold (below -20C!), but I want to run my system year round/am just starting now as winter approaches. Having spent hours on end combing through the various threads, I am hoping to get some specific input on the challenges I face running an AP system while growing a tropical fish in a less than tropical environment

soooooo...

To start, the things I have settled on (though I am open to persuasion) are that I plan to run a CHOP/CHIFT PIST system. I like the constant fish tank height and would rather have plant loss instead of fish loss, and I like the ONE PUMP idea. My general flow will be: water pumped from the sump tank to fish tank -> a SLO in the elevated fish tank that drains water into swirl filter -> swirl filter drains into settling tank/duckweed bed -> water flows to growbeds -> then water flows back into sump tank.

I have all my supplies purchased and ready at this point but want some final pointers from some experts like yourselves (as I have clearly been reading!) as to the best setup, practices, etc, especially with the cold weather and tilapia being tropical fish all coming from my propensity to do things the most difficult way possible :geek:

So far my supply list is as follows:

-Two 330 gallon (1250L) IBCs, one already cut as ~2/3 FT and ~1/3 GB
-One 275 gallon (1000L) IBC - maybe for sump?
-A 300 gallon (1100L) Rubbermaid "watering trough" tank - not sure what I will use this for yet
-350 +/- gallon (1325L +/-) former cardboard dumpster, oddly shaped
-Two 55 gallon (200L) blue barrels, at least one of which will be used to make a swirl filter for solids removal, since ***I want to run a fish-heavy system with high stocking densities*** My main goal is lots of fish, while the resulting lots of veggies is a huge plus too.
-1500 watt water heater that fits in IBC drainage hole (came with water trough)
-300 watt Fluval Aquarium heater
-Little Giant 3200 GPH/226 watt pump
-ActiveAqua 45 L/min (20 watt) air pump, 6 way splitter, and some air stones

This list does not include my 55 gallon breeder tank setup where my tilapia breeders will crank out the fry -> fingerlings for my system. Also, as an aside, started a worm bed for extra fish food supplement (also good for my chickens) and maybe to keep in growbeds?

And now for the most important part... QUESTIONS:

1. HEAT! My biggest initial concern, especially starting in now as temps are dropping:

So, to mitigate heat loss, I took the area under our 2nd story deck and built an insulated area where the fish tanks will be housed.

Attachment:

File comment: Construction started on the fish housing area

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Our clothes dryer vent blows hot air right inside, and I also plan to have a fan blowing heated air from our basement into the space to keep up the air temps.

Attachment:

File comment: Plywood inside, insulation, black plastic, and then white lattice (to make it pretty so the wife is happy)

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File comment: Here it is all finished and lookin good.

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Then on the ground-level deck right next to it I assembled a 6' x 8' (about 2 x 3 meters) Multiline Hobby Greenhouse (with Twin-wall polycarbonate panels to retain more heat) which will have the grow beds and a 400 watt grow light which will also provide heating (though only when on, obviously) since it only gets about 4 hours of sunlight per day. Pics to follow...

All grow beds and fish tanks will be insulated (and covered with styrofoam sheets, not air tight!) to retain as much heat as possible. I am thinking the best place to heat the water is in the fish tanks and/or in the sump tanks, since water will be flowing back into sump from the greenhouse which is less insulated and growbeds where I am sure lots of heat loss will occur. Any thoughts?

2. Flood and drain vs. Constant Flow? I am included towards constant flow, any arguments for or against?

3. WORMS IN THE GROWBEDS? Do I want to have some of my red wigglers living in the growbeds to further breakdown fish waste?

4. MORE (CHEAP) HEAT? I have been looking at rocket mass stoves and the potential to build one for cheap additional heating... does anyone have any good experience incorporating this concept into an aquaponics system?
My main concerns are

I have a few more questions but they are best posted with pictures, so coming at ya in another post...

Bushy

G'day gtmylo, welcome to BYAP, really comprehensive first post and hope some of our US members can steer you down the right track.
Being an aussie I cant help you much except I can confirm the temps do drop to -20deg, and lower with windchill in NH, as I lived there for 6 years.
So good luck keeping them warm but prolly harder to keep plants alive

mantis

Welcome
Nice looking setup for the fish tanks with the insulation.

Flood and drain v constant flood, well its just your choice as both work well.
Worms in the growbeds , yes, yes and yes. They love it and do really good work. My big constant flood bed seems to have the largest population of worms btw

Keep the pics coming as you progress

SnowT

hiya and Greeting's..

A suggestion While Touring America I dropped into a few Koi People Who live in areas of very Cold Climate.. Most if they don't cover their ponds in winter Bring their fish inside..

One of the Places I visited has a Tank sitting on top of Dow blue board insulation and they use heat from the house to Keep the Room warm..
- One draw back I have seen with your current idea is that you have a gravel floor.. How damp does the gravel get.. As it is in Direct contact with the ground it will transfer cold into the area..
I think you need to isolate the area from the ground..Maybe a raised Floor or a Concrete slab that is isolated from the ground..

Make sure that you insulate the Pipe Pumping/flow water from the Greenhouse to the tank's..
- If you can keep the temperature in the greenhouse warm you should get good transfer to the tank's..

That's all I can say for now..

Juergen

gtmylo

Thanks Bushy and Mantis, worked hard on that sucker! And thanks for the suggestions Jurgen... I had wondered about the gravel floor... the enclosure is up against the house on one side and I put a tin roof over the top, so it stays pretty dry, but cold transfer could definitely be an issue. Partly the reason I was considered a rocket mass heater, maybe along the outer wall?

I do plan to cover the fish tanks and insulate the growbeds and piping to/from the greenhouse, I am still wondering if all of this is enough to minimize heat loss.

For more reference here is a picture of the greenhouse:

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File comment: Greenhouse on deck next to fish enclosure.

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Another thing I was wondering is which tank should I use as the sump, and which are better suited for fish tanks? I have the 2 full IBCs and one with the top already cut, as well as the wider 300 gal trough and the odd shaped blue thing:

Attachment:

File comment: The oddly shaped blue thing... not sure whether to make this a FT, sump, or something else? and no, I did not pay $200 for it, I only picked it up when the price went from $200 to FREE

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File comment: Here is the watering trough, it is about half the height of an IBC and round, so I am thinking well suited for fish tank? Thoughts?

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Thanks again for all the input!!!

gtmylo

So, one more question for now, about cleaning the IBCs...

-CLEANING?
My IBCs were used to store waste vegetable oil, and have been a royal pain to clean. They started off looking like this:

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File comment: Here they are in the back of my truck... nasty suckers.

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Totally gave up on the outside which is still covered with large chunks of dried, gritty oil (but will be covered with insulation anyways):

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File comment: Here is what the outside looks like...

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My big concern is that the inside still seems a bit tacky from oil residue. Tried soap to get it out, and got an industrial degreaser (that did a number on my skin) and now the tanks LOOK clean but there are a few little oil spots stuck on here and there.

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File comment: You can see from this close-up it looks pretty clean, but it is sticky to the touch from the old waste oil, worried if this will harm the fish?

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Tried to blast them out with a pressure washer but a few stubborn tiny oil dots just get blown from one side to the other and are extra sticky.

So, with this sticky coat on the inside that seems impossible to get off, can I leave this as is or do I need to keep working on it? Will this hurt fish being old veggie oil? Or will bacteria/fish just feed on it/gradually break down?

Thanks again for the feedback!

faye

We recently cleaned out an IBC that was used for clean motor oil using washing detergent to make hot soapy water, with a bit of old fashioned elbow grease. The final rinse was chlorine bleach, and left in the sun for a couple of days, the fish are still alive and doing well. Who would have thought :dontknow:

DecalsbyJT

Hey

looking good.....

only one thing I see..

I noticed that you put insulation into the wall then you put lattice on top of that.....

did you put a vapor barrier so that the insulation will not soak up rain water? when insulation gets wet, it looses all its "R" factor ...

jT

gtmylo

DecalsbyJT wrote:

Hey

looking good.....

only one thing I see..

I noticed that you put insulation into the wall then you put lattice on top of that.....

did you put a vapor barrier so that the insulation will not soak up rain water? when insulation gets wet, it looses all its "R" factor ...

jT

Yes, thanks JD, I did! As you can see in the picture, I did the insulation then 6 mil black plastic, then the lattice. Good looking out though!

DecalsbyJT

Hey

sorry I missed the black plastic sticking out on your previous pic....

good deal.. looks like it will be a nice setup

jT

Dave Donley

Welcome gtmylo!

I like your project a lot. Will be a challenge. My advice is to definitely isolate the tanks from the floor with blue board at least. I had an indoor setup a few years ago in the basement with tilapia and the concrete will suck out all the heat from the water.

The other thing I think you should consider is counterflow heat exchangers. In the heat exchanger water from the house would travel past water coming from the greenhouse. At the one end the water is warm for the tilapia. At the other end the water is whatever the greenhouse is at. With an efficient enough heat exchanger you will not lose so much heat sending nutrients to the greenhouse. Think of the greenhouse as a separate loop to remove nitrates, and the fish loop to deal with ammonia and nitrites.

HTH, will be interesting to watch what happens this Winter!

SnowT

For the Fish Tank Try to have insulation under the Tank..

Maybe if you placed some Plastic on the Ground, then place timber to space the tank off the ground..and then insulation, that should stop Loses from the Bottom of the tanks.. then wrap the tank's....

A space heater to heat the whole area might be better .. Keep the whole area nice and Warm.. just by keeping the area warm you should be able to keep the tanks warm..
- ie Pallet heater might do the job to heat the whole area.. But you will most Probably lose a Lot of Heat thru the temp Roof you Put in Place..

I think you will be better off making sure that the whole area is well insulated.. Any Heat you Put in the area can be used to Keep the house warm as well.. Especially if you keep the area about 70-80F..

Juergen

gtmylo

GREAT feedback on getting the tanks up off the ground and adding bottom insulation, something I had not thought of! Also going to look into the counterflow heat exchangers, Dave, thanks for that!

I have several rolls of reflective insulation, not a huge R-factor, but I was going to at least add that to the roof to prevent some additional heat loss... I am thinking that because the tin roof is underneath my deck, it provides at least some wind break and additional insulating properties, and I am hoping with the reflective insulation that will add to it as well.

Will continue to keep updating, please keep the feedback coming! Many thanks to all!

SnowT

I do know that in Australia we have a under Roof foil/insulation that is a combination of foil and Foam.. If I remember it is Rated to R2.5.. Some thing like that might help..
Plan old Foil is Only Rated as R1.. and even that I think has to be Taped/sealed with foil tape to get that Reading..
- We use the Foil to Wrap our Building here.. as a form of Barrier but 90% of builder Don't tape the foil edges so it is a minimal Cosmetic thing..

Sorry Stole a Pic From..
http://www.aconcordcarpenter.com/2009/1 ... iency.html

the Diagram is to give you an indication of % heat loss from each different surface..

the Tin under the Decking Will Allow a Loss of 25% and if you Don't Block the Drafts you Loss even More..

so it would be better to make the whole area Air Tight..

Hope these Idea's help you..

Juergen

gtmylo

Good info Juergen, extremely helpful commentary throughout - thanks again! The reflective insulation stuff I have is something like R3 or R4, so definitely going to put that up on the roof, and will use that "great stuff" expanding foam to fill all the cracks.

Needed to get the FTs a little higher anyway, so I am thinking maybe pallets on the ground with foam board insulation under that, then the FTs. I may even put a piece of foam board insulation under the actual IBC tank on top of the metal pallet they sit in now that everyone has stressed the importance of bottom insulation.

Thanks all, the more info I can pry out of your collective expert minds, the better!

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