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PostPosted: Feb 26th, '12, 13:29 
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Hurray! No silver perch death for four consecutive days after daily death for about one week!
It seems the system has now stabilised.

On the other hand, I am not sure about the reason for this positive change as I am unsure about the cause of many SP death. Without knowing the reasons, I cannot control the conditions in future. However, I have a feeling (not same as a mere wish) that at least for the time being there may not be any more SP death.

One of the reasons why it is difficult to explain the beginning of SP death as well as the ending(?) is that there were many factors at operation.

Although I cannot "explain" what happened, I can provide a narrative account.

1] Without going back too far, I start from the point when 30 tiny silver perch fingerings were introduced. I had a healthy fish pond with 35 gold fish and no grow beds linked to the pond. Pond water was filtered by an expensive Oase bio filter that kept water very clean. My main concern at this point was that the filter may be taking away nutrients for plants so that I may have to stop using filter once the pond is connected to grow beds. Silver perch fingerings grew well toegether with very large gold fish (only about 15-20 cm long, but very fat). Silverperch grew more than 100% in about three weeks.
2] Once grow beds were linked to the fish pond, I set up a 15 min flood and 45 min drain system. This meant no use of the dedicated filter. In about fifth day, silver perch begain dying. In the beginning one or two per day, but after several days, there was 9 death in one day. This was followed by another one or two death per day. This happened even though there were water changes, initially using rain water, then tap water. There were various views about the reason for silver perch death: a] use of tap water, b] adding silver perch in a tank with gold fish, c] feeding of silver perch, etc.
3] In order to prevent further silver perch death, I began to use the OASE pond filter again. I stopped the flood and drain cycle at 8pm and started again at 8am. But in addition to this, I used the 12 hour interval in the evening to filter the pond water with the OASE filter. In addition to this I made a major water change: took about 25% of water out and added tap water in small dose (perhaps 3-4%) each day. This adding of tap water was not merely adding. Water was added by use of a pond vaccum which operated by (tap) water pressure. Vaccum cleaning was applied to the bottom of pond floor where a lot of waste had accumulated to a degree far greater than the time when pond was not linked to grow beds and pond filter was used for 7/24. Each time before a vaccum (which also meant adding of tap water), I would scrup the pond wall and floor so that solid waste get detached. After four or five days of this procedure daily, water became fairly clearn again. Silver perch death stopped in about second or third day of this cleaning process.
4] I should also mention that I stopped feeding fish as I began using the OASE filter. I started feeding yesterday avoiding anything too oily, like the dog food I used for about two weeks. (More about this in another entry.)

At the point when silver perch were dying daily, pond water had become rather dirty, meaning a lot of waste particles in water. These waste particles would attach themselves to all surfaces, algae grown on pond wall, water lily, or any other surface such as concrete block on which water lily plant pot was sitting, etc. I felt that this could be one factor in fish death even though the reason why this started was not clear.
Here is a sample of waste particle covering a rock. The right side of the rock is covered by what looks like dirty algae. The left side was the bottom side of rock when it was inside water lily plant pot inside pond.
Attachment:
IMG_1850.JPG
IMG_1850.JPG [ 112.22 KiB | Viewed 1045 times ]
Attachment:
IMG_1851.JPG
IMG_1851.JPG [ 121.23 KiB | Viewed 1045 times ]

Whiling vaccuming the floor of the pond, I found something that gave me a small shock.
Attachment:
IMG_1832.JPG
IMG_1832.JPG [ 104.41 KiB | Viewed 1045 times ]
Initially, I thought it was a peice of paper because it was white and about 10 cm in length. It was at the rear bottom of concrete block on which my scuptured pond fountain was placed where I could not see from the position where I normally look into the pond. On close look, it was a decomposed fish showing bones. It did not look like a gold fish, but it must be since silver perch could not be that big. The red colour of gold fish was gone, the meat part had largely disappeared, and the decomposed fish skin that was still attached to the mass was white. All through out the experience of silver perch death, the fact that no gold fish died had been a remaining consolation for me. And I had not been aware that a gold fish died!

Sorry, gold fish. I did not know you were dead. You could be one that licked my finger in pond.

Perhaps the cause of gold fish death was not the same as that for silver perch death.
Perhaps the gold fish died long ago. etc etc....

What I am also not sure about is whether there would have been silver perch death even if I did not start the aquaponic set up, ie, linking pond to grow beds and water being circulated through grow beds.

But it seems the cleaning fo pond and water change seems to resulted containing the continued fish death. It feels like I have gone though a rough ordial and survived.
Sigh of relief though there is remaining discomport of not fully understanding the precise reasons for what happened.

I am sure I am not the only one who felt this way.
But some seem to have a very smooth sailing and some do not.

I suppose that is life.

Sejin

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- 5000L fish pond, 4 x 350L grow beds, 130 gold fish
- first system set up in Feb 2012, expansion in April

History to April 2, 2012:
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=11530&start=240#p322974


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PostPosted: Feb 26th, '12, 14:47 
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Bordering on Legend
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Over the two weeks since two grow beds (350L) was linked to a 5000L fish pond, despite "massive fish death" and many water changes, and finally a stable condition and clean water, there has been basically no significant change in water test result.
PH 7.8
Ammonia 0.25
Nitrite 0.25
Nitrate 5
Attachment:
File comment: Feb 15
0215.JPG
0215.JPG [ 69.88 KiB | Viewed 1041 times ]

Attachment:
File comment: yesterday, all tests
water test 0225.JPG
water test 0225.JPG [ 68.31 KiB | Viewed 1041 times ]


If there was no change in these values, they do not explain the little drama that I have experienced. Despite the new stable condition that I have arrived at, it is somewhat discomforting not to be able to understand the biological mechanism of the AP experience that I had.

Sejin


Attachments:
File comment: today, only ph and ammonia tests, the first and third tests were for tap water.
water test 0226.JPG
water test 0226.JPG [ 142.11 KiB | Viewed 1041 times ]

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My system:
- 5000L fish pond, 4 x 350L grow beds, 130 gold fish
- first system set up in Feb 2012, expansion in April

History to April 2, 2012:
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=11530&start=240#p322974
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PostPosted: Feb 26th, '12, 16:20 
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Seriously, this cant be healthy.
Seriously, this cant be healthy.
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Is there a chance that the bacteria in the filter had died?

Did you turn on the filter every day throughout this period, or was the filter left off for a week without any water going through it?

I'm thinking that perhaps you had no nitrifying bacteria, a dead goldfish, and immature grow beds. if your system has a healthy bacteria colony, you should be seeing zeros for ammonia and nitrate.

Also I found lighting can have an effect on viewing the water tests. My kitchen fluro gives me very different results as compared to sunlight. I dont understand why, but perhaps either the test, or the card is absorbing light differently.

I always read my results in sunlight.

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PostPosted: Feb 26th, '12, 16:43 
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BullwinkleII wrote:
My kitchen fluro gives me very different results as compared to sunlight. I dont understand why, but perhaps either the test, or the card is absorbing light differently.

fluros and other sorts of artificial light only put out certain spectrums (colours) of light where as sunlight is more balanced.

taken from this site http://www.bealecorner.org/best/measure/cf-spectrum/index.html

"Below is a photo showing two sources illuminating the spectroscope slit at once.
The upper part is the solar spectrum with Fraunhofer lines.
The lower part is light from a 23W CF (compact fluorescent) light. "
Image



so as you can see fluros only throw out certain colours where as natural "solar spectrum" is far more balanced.

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PostPosted: Feb 26th, '12, 17:32 
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Seriously, this cant be healthy.
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It might be worth planting some more seeds for things like lettuce.

I plant seeds every two weeks to make sure I get a steady supply.

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120 THINGS IN 20 YEARS - My blog about my learning adventure

My skills include being able to move slowly forward in time, and if I really concentrate, I can sometimes tell what I'm thinking.


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PostPosted: Feb 26th, '12, 20:08 
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Bordering on Legend
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BullwinkleII wrote:
Is there a chance that the bacteria in the filter had died?

Did you turn on the filter every day throughout this period, or was the filter left off for a week without any water going through it?

I'm thinking that perhaps you had no nitrifying bacteria, a dead goldfish, and immature grow beds. if your system has a healthy bacteria colony, you should be seeing zeros for ammonia and nitrate.


Yes, I did stop using the pold filter totally for about five days.
I wonder what the effect of this interval of no filter usage.
It is possible that any living organism such as bacteria in the filter may have died if filter is not used when days were hot.
I am yet to fully understand the role of filter in cultivating bacteria.
But a regular use even from now on must establish the old cycle.

Sejin

_________________
My system:
- 5000L fish pond, 4 x 350L grow beds, 130 gold fish
- first system set up in Feb 2012, expansion in April

History to April 2, 2012:
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=11530&start=240#p322974


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PostPosted: Feb 26th, '12, 20:18 
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Bordering on Legend
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Location: Lochiel Park, Campbelltown SA
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Yes, I am aware that artificial light may give a wrong colour in test result.
Typically, I examine the test results in living room where there is indirect natural light.
However, when there is insufficient light, I turn fluro light on.
The result is a combination of indirect natrual light and fluro light.
It may affect the colour of the water tested in test tube.
But the printed colour code quide may also be affected.
If it is an issue of matching colour, may be it is OK?
The colour of photograph also changes sometimes when the picture file (jpeg) is processed to accentuate the colour a bit. Again, this process also affects the colour of the colour coded card as well as that of test tube. I am not sure whether it affects equally.
I assumed that our tests are only rough guide without that kind of precision.

Sejin

_________________
My system:
- 5000L fish pond, 4 x 350L grow beds, 130 gold fish
- first system set up in Feb 2012, expansion in April

History to April 2, 2012:
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=11530&start=240#p322974


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PostPosted: Feb 26th, '12, 20:21 
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Location: Lochiel Park, Campbelltown SA
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BullwinkleII wrote:
It might be worth planting some more seeds for things like lettuce.

I plant seeds every two weeks to make sure I get a steady supply.


Additional planting is a good idea. I will spray some more seeds in the places in the grow beds with seeds where I do not see any sprouting yet.
It is possible that some of the seeds may yet sprout, but it may not hurt to sprinkle some more of the same kind of seeds.

Sejin

_________________
My system:
- 5000L fish pond, 4 x 350L grow beds, 130 gold fish
- first system set up in Feb 2012, expansion in April

History to April 2, 2012:
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=11530&start=240#p322974


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PostPosted: Feb 26th, '12, 20:51 
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Sejin wrote:
Yes, I did stop using the pold filter totally for about five days.
i would imagine that all the bacteria would have died not using it for so long. once the media drys out the bacteria have nowhere left to live. this could well be the reason for you having so many fish deaths lately.

Sejin wrote:
I am yet to fully understand the role of filter in cultivating bacteria.
the filter is simply somewhere for the bacteria to live. the bacteria needs to cling to something to thrive and your filter (or grow bed) simply gives the bacteria a nice home and supply of "food" (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and oxygen). one type of bacteria converts ammonia to nitrite, another type converts nitrite to harmless nitrate.

Sejin wrote:
But a regular use even from now on must establish the old cycle.
it will, but will probably take a couple/few weeks till it starts up again

for now i would be feeding very little (or no) food. at least until your ammonia and nitrites come back down under control and then feed only so much as your beds can handle. if your measuring ammonia your feeding to much.

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religion is like a penis,
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do not push it on children
do not write laws with it
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PostPosted: Feb 26th, '12, 22:02 
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Hi Dan,

Thanks for your comments.
Since I linked my grow beds to my pond, they have been in use non-stop.
The pond water has been circulating to the filter for 5 months, so I assume pond water itself has bacteria, and this water has been circulating to grow beds, so I would think that bacteria would have established in grow beds. This is my guess.

Sejin

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My system:
- 5000L fish pond, 4 x 350L grow beds, 130 gold fish
- first system set up in Feb 2012, expansion in April

History to April 2, 2012:
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=11530&start=240#p322974


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PostPosted: Feb 26th, '12, 22:16 
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Sejin wrote:
The pond water has been circulating to the filter for 5 months, so I assume pond water itself has bacteria
there would be some in there but not enough to handle your fish load. it takes time to build up enough to control your system. it would be like me asking you to run a marathon today, you cant. but if you trained long enough you would have the stamina to handle it.

Sejin wrote:
this water has been circulating to grow beds, so I would think that bacteria would have established in grow beds. This is my guess.
Image[/quote]

again just looking at your test results there is not enough bacteria to handle the load in your tank. you need zero ammonia and nitrite and only a little nitrate. until you measure zero ammonia and nitrite you need to stop putting anything into the tank (feeding) which will also help stop your fish pooping. anything that isnt alive in your tank adds to ammonia. once your ammonia comes back down you can begin feeling small amounts unless you see your ammonia raise again. slowly you will get more and more bacteria and you will be able to feed more.

maybe this link will help you understand it better. http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/cycling2.htm

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religion is like a penis,
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its ok to be proud of it
HOWEVER
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do not push it on children
do not write laws with it
do not think with it

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PostPosted: Feb 27th, '12, 00:14 
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Seriously, this cant be healthy.
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My system originally took 5 or 6 weeks to get to the stage where it could process added ammonia within 24 hours. If I kill of my bacteria, say by disconnecting my grow bed, it would take almost that long again to re-establish.

The population of the nitrifying bacteria rely on a steady feed supply of ammonia and nitrites.

Some live in the water, but hardly any compared to your filter or a grow bed full of media.

The fact that there is any ammonia and nitrite reading on your test results can only mean there is insufficient numbers of nitrifying bacteria for the nutrient load.

Why there is insufficient could be for any or all of the reasons mentioned, but there IS a shortage of bacteria for the amount of ammonia and nitrites.

As mentioned, the standard response is pump as much water as you can through as much bacteria real estate (filter and grow bed) as you can and stop feeding until you see zero ammonia and zero nitrites. Also add as much air as you can.

Just turn everything on until you see zeros.

Except perhaps your ultraviolet thing.

Rup will know about that.

I'm not sure how to summon Rup. Normally people just say his name and he appears :)

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120 THINGS IN 20 YEARS - My blog about my learning adventure

My skills include being able to move slowly forward in time, and if I really concentrate, I can sometimes tell what I'm thinking.


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PostPosted: Feb 27th, '12, 00:31 
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pretty much, everything BW said you need to pay attention to.

but i guess the most important part is.....

BullwinkleII wrote:
pump as much water as you can through as much bacteria real estate (filter and grow bed) as you can and stop feeding until you see zero ammonia and zero nitrites. Also add as much air as you can.

Just turn everything on until you see zeros.
yep, pretty much run your pump all day and night. never turn it off until your levels get back to zeros.

BullwinkleII wrote:
Except perhaps your ultraviolet thing
UV lights kill bacteria. dont run it till your system works its self out.

BullwinkleII wrote:
I'm not sure how to summon Rup. Normally people just say his name and he appears :)
actually....... i believe you need to call his name 3 times ;)

_________________
religion is like a penis,
its ok to have one
its ok to be proud of it
HOWEVER
do not pull it out in public
do not push it on children
do not write laws with it
do not think with it

OnE bY oNe ThE pEnGuInS aRe StEaLiNg My SaNiTy


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PostPosted: Feb 27th, '12, 00:43 
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Seriously, this cant be healthy.
Seriously, this cant be healthy.
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Ahh that's it... I've been clicking my heals together three times :)

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120 THINGS IN 20 YEARS - My blog about my learning adventure

My skills include being able to move slowly forward in time, and if I really concentrate, I can sometimes tell what I'm thinking.


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PostPosted: Feb 27th, '12, 00:56 
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BullwinkleII wrote:
Ahh that's it... I've been clicking my heals together three times :)

that possibly would have worked as well..... but i believe you were wearing the wrong foot wear

tho im beginning to fell sorry for Sejin. im not sure he is following our line of dialogue or in fact this is actually helping him lol

PS oh wow, just looked at your link. didnt realise alice went back into the rabbit hole so deep.........

tho i cant help wonder what alice had to do with the wizard of oz? :| and the ruby slippers?

im officially lost....... and Sejin you would probably be best served by just ignoring the last couple of posts :D

_________________
religion is like a penis,
its ok to have one
its ok to be proud of it
HOWEVER
do not pull it out in public
do not push it on children
do not write laws with it
do not think with it

OnE bY oNe ThE pEnGuInS aRe StEaLiNg My SaNiTy


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