Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

I'm making my architecture thesis based on AP and one of the things I have been thinking while designing fish tanks is if the life of an AP fish is a bad one? I mean they're left alone with no natural environment? I understand the point that plants should be growing in the GB's but what's your argument to people who challenges the animal welfare part of the brilliant AP design?
Maybe fish don't have feelings and get depressed and die, but I'm not informed enough to know this.

the fish are livestock, and are treated much better than most commercial livestock

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my basement system;
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=8354

Good subject, this should become interesting. An honest look at this aspect of AP is favourable, lets explore the cognitive dissonance. Browsing this forum I came across more than a few dead fish. Water quality problems, less than perfect system designs, human error etc seems to be quite common.

My new system is currently in its fishless cycle. When it is done, we will add the fish and can expect to loose some. Which is not what we are going for, but accepted by us. We are in a learning curve, mistakes will be, and have been, made.

The fish will be in a IBC tank, square with no plants in it. I acknowledge it is not an unspoiled brook in the mountains.

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Speel gerust maar bewust.

my system has an outdoor 5000 gallon pond "ecosystem" design, which is almost entirely natural except for the PP planters and rubber EPDM liner.

Why do you expect (and accept) that you will loose some?

If you build and operate your system correctly, that is stock to your filtration capacity, don't over feed, have plenty of DO or a backup system, have a cover over your tank to stop fish jumping out and predators from getting in, stock correct fish for your climate, then there is no reason you will loose any.

The only people who loose fish (besides the odd one - I had one which managed to escape my cover) are the people who ignore the above.

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ArBe
My Home System
My Country Backyard
My Suburban Backyard

I disagree with you arbe, fish do seem to die for no apparent reason, and this is why in aquaculture there are correction factors, granted these factors take into account the water quality and temp parameters however even when everything is right fish can and will die (unless you harvest them first!) we just called them mort’s, and check for them every day, when dealing with large amounts of fingerlings or fry just moving them from point A to Point B can result in some deaths, and that can be from one tank to another 1 meter away or 1 km away.
I agree the numbers are small but it is fair to expect to lose fish especially when starting out as keeping everything right and operating a system corectly is easier said than done even for the experienced!

The odd one dieing for what seems to be reasons unknown and deaths due to human error/learning curve are two different things.

For example, not doing your research and putting 100 trout in a 1000 litre tank with no additional aeration in the middle of an Australia summer.

All too often people jump right in the deep end and end up killing lots of fish when small steps and patience are required.

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ArBe
My Home System
My Country Backyard
My Suburban Backyard

I, like a lot of people who produce their own food by growing animals, believe that if we give the animals a good, stress-free life, treat them kindly, provide space and the things they need to thrive (not just survive), harvest them in a humane manner and only grow/harvest those animals we intend to use/eat (no wastage) then this is as much as we can do for the animals whilst still producing our food.

Spending their lives in cylindrical HDPE tanks might not be their natural environment, but the fish I have were hatched and raised in captivity and are held in captivity for their entire lives; other than for "genetic instinct" my fish don't know what they are missing because they have never had it.

Personally, I do everything I can to reduce stress on my fish; I cycle my systems before adding fish, I ensure they have more than just adequate aeration, plenty of space and food and I use the ike jime method for a quick, insofar as I know, painless death. There is only so much we can do.

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2008-2009: Experimental, NFT
2010-2012: IBC system(s)
2012-Now : 1000L FT, 500L GB, 23/25 trout (added 27Apr. 2 jumpers)

SkyPE: wabbit.com.au

I think it depends on what species is grown as to whether the fish are happy in an AP system, generally species that are used in aquaculture are suitable as these have proven to adapt to domestication best.

Many of the fish deaths you read about on this forum are the result of people not having done any research first, both about how their aquaponics system works and the environmental requirements needed to keep the chosen species happy. Unlike humans fish cant go to a doctor when they have a problem so these fish become smaller & weaker and then once exposed to any form of stress will die. I see it happen all the time as the seasons change, I can go for months without any trout deaths and then once it starts to warm up a bit I may lose a dozen of the weaker trout in one day!

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http://www.fergusonsprings.com
Fingerlings delivered to your door

+1 Bunson and Troutman

If we are going to discuss this topic, which I think will be interesting and bring many divergent views, then we should separate animal welfare (usually based in law) from animal ethics (ethical production of fish)

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My system
Marc's System

fair enough arbe, I personally have kept fish for many years and have studied aquaculture and have come to expect fish deaths without human error, I have lost fish to so many different incidents. I think it is an unfortunate part of keeping fish or livestock, and sometimes we can try to hard to correct things after a fish or two die and really make things worse.

I agree with you all Troutman, Mark de & Bunson, I have quite a few animals and fish and love having them, and I have lost lots to, even when I believe I have done everything right, but that is life, it does happen.

Regarding sporadic fish deaths, isn't it reasonable to assume that some individual fish are weaker or have inherent health issues, just as we Homo sapiens are/have? I think it is unreasonable to expect that in any given population of any species of any class of any order of any kingdom that all specimens will survive through to maturity (say, breeding age or harvestable size) even after removing natural predators, pests, diseases and otherwise providing 'ideal' living conditions.
As Troutman and grunta (where are you located, anyway, grunta?) have said, sometimes fish just die. I think it is important to use these deaths as potential indicators of problems in a system and to watch for patterns. Troutman's example is a good one, ie weaker trout expiring first when conditions start to go unfavourable for them.
After all, the continuation of life depends on genetic variations, sometimes very subtle and totally invisible to us, between individual specimens of a life form that may enable its species to adapt, or may cause that specimen to die.
(Reference: On the Origin of Species, Charles Darwin, 24 November 1859)

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∞ ∞ PLJ's Big Concrete Tank System ∞ ∞
∞ ∞ ∞ The 'Puddle' ∞ ∞ ∞

I love my fish and I know they love me.......they even told me so.

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~2010/2011~
~2012/2013~
~My Yabbie Hunting Adventures~

I intend to do all of the above, but I still expect too loose fish. Even if it is the odd ball who jumps the fence. It just seems part of keeping fish, that now and again some kick the bucket.

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Speel gerust maar bewust.

The odd one is inevitable.

Large numbers and you all it tells me is you haven't done your research or are tinkering too much.

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ArBe
My Home System
My Country Backyard
My Suburban Backyard