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 Post subject: Re: The Evolution Puzzle
PostPosted: May 27th, '13, 21:27 
Journeyman wrote:
It appears clear there is meaning to life, other than just our desire for it.

Really... OK... who's the smart arse practical joker that gave me the wrong manual... huh???


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 Post subject: Re: The Evolution Puzzle
PostPosted: May 27th, '13, 21:37 
Back to the debate....

Does consciousness require the biological processes of a brain... and/or... can it exist after brain death....

If a "brain" is not a requirement for "consciousness".... then surely ALL forms of life must have some degree of consciousness...

And can we not extend that... to the possibility that machines... computer robots.... could therefore have, or could develop consciousness....


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 Post subject: Re: The Evolution Puzzle
PostPosted: May 27th, '13, 21:47 
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RupertofOZ wrote:
Journeyman wrote:
It appears clear there is meaning to life, other than just our desire for it.

Really... OK... who's the smart arse practical joker that gave me the wrong manual... huh???

You have a manual? :laughing3: Can I borrow it?


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 Post subject: Re: The Evolution Puzzle
PostPosted: May 27th, '13, 21:48 
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Slowboat wrote:
this thread is like waiting for a flock of Galahs to discover nuclear physics!

A waste of time,

get a life Journeyman?

I'd rather be doing something interesting like watching my fish grow.

Feel free to do so. *shrugs* It is my time to waste and nobody is making you sit and read it.


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 Post subject: Re: The Evolution Puzzle
PostPosted: May 27th, '13, 21:55 
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RupertofOZ wrote:
Back to the debate....

Does consciousness require the biological processes of a brain... and/or... can it exist after brain death....
THAT is one interesting question. It's late and I have an early start - I'd like to come back to this Q...

RupertofOZ wrote:
If a "brain" is not a requirement for "consciousness".... then surely ALL forms of life must have some degree of consciousness...
Have you assumed that NOT to be true before this?

RupertofOZ wrote:
And can we not extend that... to the possibility that machines... computer robots.... could therefore have, or could develop consciousness....
Totally different conversation I think. Whether it relates to this one would depend entirely on what Life actually is. I'm not sure an imitation of a thinker qualifies as life.


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 Post subject: Re: The Evolution Puzzle
PostPosted: May 27th, '13, 22:01 
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Journeyman wrote:
RupertofOZ wrote:
And can we not extend that... to the possibility that machines... computer robots.... could therefore have, or could develop consciousness....
Totally different conversation I think. Whether it relates to this one would depend entirely on what Life actually is. I'm not sure an imitation of a thinker qualifies as life.


Definition of Life
The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism.

Robots are definately.... NOT alive.

They may mimic life but they are far from it.
:)

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 Post subject: Re: The Evolution Puzzle
PostPosted: May 27th, '13, 22:40 
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In the future we may have nano technology that is capable of repairing the human body or even replacing human body parts that will work and feel just like the biological version. So one day you might have a robotic hand that works and feels just like a normal human hand similar to Luke Skywalker in Star Wars. There is already a very simple bionic eye that is able to restore very basic sight in blind people.

If such technology eventually becomes available and it is also possible to repair or replace sections of the human brain... then theoretically it would be possible to replace the entire brain with nano technology. If it is possible to replace an entire human brain with nano technology then it would also be possible to make identical copies... but which version of you would be you? In a way they would both be you but you would experience the universe from an individual perspective. Also it would then become possible to make even more copies that go on their own separate adventures and then share what they experienced via nano technology assisted total immersion virtual reality.

I know this might sound crazy and maybe it is. Maybe it will never become possible and maybe it actually is not possible because we still are not able to properly explain consciousnesses. But there are people thinking about this kind of thing. It is sometimes refereed to as the "singularity." Also maybe we already are part of a singularity that was created by super intelligent beings. I am not saying this is the way things should go but it is a possibility.


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 Post subject: Re: The Evolution Puzzle
PostPosted: May 27th, '13, 22:46 
Charlie wrote:
Journeyman wrote:
RupertofOZ wrote:
And can we not extend that... to the possibility that machines... computer robots.... could therefore have, or could develop consciousness....

Totally different conversation I think. Whether it relates to this one would depend entirely on what Life actually is. I'm not sure an imitation of a thinker qualifies as life.


Definition of Life
The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism.

Robots are definately.... NOT alive.

They may mimic life but they are far from it.
:)

Ah... but aren't both of you assuming the question I asked.... that "life" is essential.. for consciousness...

Or that... the biological brain functions that allow "thinking"... are necessary... or equate to... consciousness....

If the former.... then all life must have a degree of consciousness ... (and I didn't necessarily assume otherwise Journeyman... :wink: )

If the later... then we exclude life forms without brains... research on plant sentience would seem to negate this...

And therefore... doesn't it follow in either case.... that death.... means the death of any consciousness... as well...


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 Post subject: Re: The Evolution Puzzle
PostPosted: May 27th, '13, 22:50 
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A.I. could be the next step in evolution.

Scientifically speaking death would mean no more consciousness if we look at the evidence that is available but some scientists believe in an afterlife.


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 Post subject: Re: The Evolution Puzzle
PostPosted: May 27th, '13, 22:54 
Conscious existence... without the need for physical form... may well be our actual next natural... and/or evolutionary step... or purpose....

Perhaps our physical body existence... is merely our gestation period....


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 Post subject: Re: The Evolution Puzzle
PostPosted: May 27th, '13, 23:04 
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Damn, 3 really interesting ideas on one page from Rupert, Charlie and MacGyver! Now that's the way to start something.

If consciousness requires a brain, it does not automatically means that every brain contains consciousness. That last fact can easily be observed by looking around you. That would rule out the brain as a source of consciousness. I think, so I am must be wrong then, unless one says "I think I am". Thinking you are something is more a case of delusion than a fact. Freud kicks in here with the ego, so called Id. At least that is what I think to remember, since all those details could get mixed up in the course of all these years.

Could one say that consciousness can be defined as a mechanism, present in an organism, that makes it aware of itself and its environment and enables it to interact adequate with that environment and itself?

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 Post subject: Re: The Evolution Puzzle
PostPosted: May 27th, '13, 23:07 
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RupertofOZ wrote:
Conscious existence... without the need for physical form... may well be our actual next natural... and/or evolutionary step... or purpose....

Perhaps our physical body existence... is merely our gestation period....


:) an idea that comes forward in Clarke's 2001 and 2010. It's a very interesting concept with, IMHO, a relatively high chance of occurrence.

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 Post subject: Re: The Evolution Puzzle
PostPosted: May 27th, '13, 23:18 
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It would also be a solution for space travel, providing that Einstein's relativity theory is correct. The physical boundaries removed, would make space travel possible. Something like "I think myself on Mars and there I am".

I would like to think that the speed of light is just another barrier to take and marks the border between physical existence ( matter) and energy. This behavior of matter is observed in CERN and would explain the behavior of the Higgs boson.

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 Post subject: Re: The Evolution Puzzle
PostPosted: May 28th, '13, 00:08 
Domani wrote:
Could one say that consciousness can be defined as a mechanism, present in an organism, that makes it aware of itself and its environment and enables it to interact adequate with that environment and itself?

Ahh... but that means then that a "brain" isn't necessary at all....

And all life is "conscious".. as all life interacts with the environment... and within at least it's own species... if not all others...

So then the question distils to a concept of "awareness".... and that's what we humans typically define... as making us human... and intelligent...

But it's still a question of degrees... plants have been shown to be aware of predators... and able to communication/interact... with other plants.... to "warn" them....


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 Post subject: Re: The Evolution Puzzle
PostPosted: May 28th, '13, 01:30 
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RupertofOZ wrote:
Ahh... but that means then that a "brain" isn't necessary at all....

And all life is "conscious".. as all life interacts with the environment... and within at least it's own species... if not all others...

So then the question distils to a concept of "awareness".... and that's what we humans typically define... as making us human... and intelligent...

But it's still a question of degrees... plants have been shown to be aware of predators... and able to communication/interact... with other plants.... to "warn" them....


Yeah, probably a brain is not necessary for consciousness if that idea is viable. But awareness can exist in an organism without it interacting with its environment. The same actually would count for consciousness. Brainless awareness and/ or consciousness can be observed in humans, hence these qualities do not automatically makes one an intelligent human being. :D

Organisms can be conscious and/or aware without being intelligent? It seems so.

So the question rises, can there be intelligence without consciousness or awareness? I tend to think it is possible, although without consciousness or awareness that intelligence would be limited to basic processes.

So, is the behavior of these plants only a matter of brainless awareness which would limit their intelligent actions to simple communication with other plants and some warning system, or is it a form of intelligence that we simply fail to fully comprehend?

One can also observe forms of brainless intelligence in organisms. Which could deceive the observer with the impression that the subject is truly intelligent, while in reality the organism is just exerting some reactions on its environment that proofed to be beneficial during the evolutionary development of that organism's species.

As an example I would like to introduce a former girlfriend, who is a true believer and follower of the women's liberation movement. One of her "well thought of and intelligent" statements was that women are more intelligent than men, because they can do more things at the same moment ( multitasking).
As a man I only had the following three defenses against that statement:
1. If you mean ironing shirts and skirts while watching a soap series on TV and talking to one of your friends on the phone, all at the same moment, I have to inform you that none of these activities requires any form of intelligence, whatsoever.
2. Women have problems to concentrate on one thing at the time, unlike men who seem to be able to fully focus on a subject.
3. Given a brain capacity of 100% max, none of the female performed multi tasks can have a full 100% result. Simple mathematics.

An intelligent being would surely be able to counter such arguments, but a lack of enough evolutionary timespan to develop adequate reactions proofed that we were dealing here with a form of brainless intelligence. The room was very quiet for a while. :)

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