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PostPosted: Oct 29th, '13, 14:13 
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Excuse me, Damian. I think it was Leonardo da Vinci who build the first flying machine (plane) a couple of centuries before the Wright brothers.

Anyway, a commercial business (and AP is not excluded from that) can be defined as an activity in which money and labour is brought together with the intention to make a profit. Period.

If that profit is not made, it only means that the activity is not successful, it does not imply that business is not commercial. Every business is commercial in its nature.

So, hobby AP is an operation in which the money and labour brought together have no intention to make a profit. And commercial AP is where money and labour brought together have the intention to make a profit. Wether this profit is realized or not, doesn't matter.

I had an accountancy business for many years with clients varying from small scale to large industrial enterprises. Even those large ones had years they hardly made profits, some didn't survive after all. However, they were commercial in the true sense of the word. So what is the fuss about?

I agree, though, if someone says he is running a commercial AP operation, but in reality is just organizing workshops and consultancy jobs, it is not an AP operation in the true sense, but just a consultancy business specialized in AP.

The funny thing with consultants in any field is, that they are supposed to have the knowledge to guide and educate others that know less. And if you look around, you'll find that most consultants in any field don't know shite about their field. Most of them don't even know how to run a business. Consultants are generally just moving air with their mouths and asking money for that. At all times I would avoid them. If I want to know more about AP, I would ask questions to Joel, Ryan, Paul of Earthan Group, the people of UVI and the like. They are the ones that, if they are willing to and have the time for you, can give valuable answers. The rest are at its best just hobbyists with good intentions, at its worth money hungry easy go lucky losers.

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PostPosted: Oct 29th, '13, 17:18 
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RupertofOZ wrote:
How do you defeat the hurdle of the limitation of a wholesale premium price direct to farmers market model....


Very difficult to do, as you correctly point out.

I think where commercial aquaponics holds real potential is when it can achieve organic certification. More and more educated people are now looking for chemical free alternatives and for good reason with rising cancer rates, allergies, food intolerances etc.

I've noticed even Coles and Woolies are releasing more and more organic lines of products (at inflated prices)

I've read the organic industry is one of the fastest growing industries. This is good news in my books.

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/business ... 218569.htm

http://www.theage.com.au/small-business ... -yu0f.html


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PostPosted: Oct 29th, '13, 17:36 
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One other thought is if you can capture a niche market with Aquaponics you may be able to get ahead of the game.

For example, selling fresh organic produce in a dry, hot, drought stricken country area, of which there are many in Australia - where hardly anyone else is growing vegies at all due to the harsh climate and lack of water, let alone fresh organic produce.

There is a family I know doing this in our town in central NSW, selling fresh "chemical free" vegies (yet to receive certification) direct from their farm, and selling through weekend farmers market stalls at surrounding towns and they seriously cannot produce enough to keep up the demand is that great let me tell you. They are doing quite well for themselves.

All the other old crap in woolies is rubbish in comparison, having been trucked in for many miles and stored for who knows how long, and people know it


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PostPosted: Oct 29th, '13, 19:34 
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Damian, regarding fish harvest.
I would recommend harvesting your fish every week, that mean small patch rotation like your veggies.
if you grow 10,000 fish and at 10 month harvest it at one time, you will find it hard to sell all those fish, unless you have a contract.
But a contract is a constant flow of fish and plant not just a one time thing for the year.

Sorry hope you understand my english
but as I said before start small to raised your stocks pile, and also customer. Than slowly expand your business.
You have to be a good salesman, a penny pincher,and a good orgaanizer to be in business.


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PostPosted: Oct 29th, '13, 20:10 
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jono81 wrote:
For example, selling fresh organic produce in a dry, hot, drought stricken country area, of which there are many in Australia - where hardly anyone else is growing vegies at all due to the harsh climate and lack of water, let alone fresh organic produce.



Some years ago I was teaching at Fitzroy Crossing in W.A.
The shop was charging $12 for an Iceberg lettuce. The only trouble is that they may only sell 3 or 4 per day.
But your point makes some sense.

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PostPosted: Oct 29th, '13, 22:18 
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Damian wrote:
Ok this sounds like a solid point to discuss here, manipulation of total fish biomass via-harvesting and its effects on cash flow and nutrient levels. Any takers on this? Lets have some fun and shear some ideas.


I've got it worked out well before I've started my venture, and to be honest it's quite simple to manage.
It's all about the right crop planting and rotation sequences (staggered methods) as well as with the fish, to achieve a slight less nutrient profile deficiency all you have to do is to stock and harvest at regular interval and try not to get over or below the phase of the system output and input.
The equation then is really very depending on the species of fish and plants you plan to grow plus the external factor like temperature/ climate/ light availability etc..
This is the methods I've been adopting in my case and until next year when the system is fully stocked and built I can not give precise answers, but so far it seem the only way to manage a balanced system without altering the nutrient profile drastically (fish bioload/plant bioload)
I've noted that if I push sometimes and take too many plants out of the system the NO2 show up (0.1-0.2)for a couple of days, then of course slight less fish food and it's under control again)

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PostPosted: Oct 30th, '13, 09:20 
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RupertofOZ wrote:
Damian wrote:
Hmm the shipping containers must be out the back right?

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You know right! My point exactly, any operation this size will have shipping containers on site regardless!

:sign5:

No... not a shipping container on site... out the back... or anywhere.... :lol:

Attachment:
UES1 (Custom).jpg


So they carry all the veggies and fish out in baskets and transport em by car????
I think they were joking and saying the shipping containers ARE THERE if not used for AP @ least used in transporting the final products...

(I agree, love watching the "who's bigger contest is a riot :laughing3: )


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PostPosted: Oct 30th, '13, 19:43 
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bioaquafarm wrote:
Damian wrote:
Ok this sounds like a solid point to discuss here, manipulation of total fish biomass via-harvesting and its effects on cash flow and nutrient levels. Any takers on this? Lets have some fun and shear some ideas.


I've got it worked out well before I've started my venture, and to be honest it's quite simple to manage.
It's all about the right crop planting and rotation sequences (staggered methods) as well as with the fish, to achieve a slight less nutrient profile deficiency all you have to do is to stock and harvest at regular interval and try not to get over or below the phase of the system output and input.
The equation then is really very depending on the species of fish and plants you plan to grow plus the external factor like temperature/ climate/ light availability etc..
This is the methods I've been adopting in my case and until next year when the system is fully stocked and built I can not give precise answers, but so far it seem the only way to manage a balanced system without altering the nutrient profile drastically (fish bioload/plant bioload)
I've noted that if I push sometimes and take too many plants out of the system the NO2 show up (0.1-0.2)for a couple of days, then of course slight less fish food and it's under control again)


What's the phase of the system output and input? For clarity, as I don't exactly understand what you mean, can you continue with the example of a system for a $500 wage, and use numbers if you can please, it help me form a picture in my head. Can yo add some in site into how you would stagger such a system to reach sales of fish @ $1388/60 days and plants at $333 a week or if this is way to much or too little for someone to phisical do, after I fillet $100 talapia I get really tired, ultimately I belive our sistem designs will all ways differ because of enviourment, eg. In my culture I could process the fish and keep them at home and sell from there, once I have customers trust, I believe in Australia you would need lots of permits and what's not, so you may be forced into selling live fish, this cuts potertial customers by %80 I would say, OK lets say we sell to a processing plant at $2per kg.


@$2/kg= $1380=690kg of fish
One fish weighs 1.5lbs or .68kg = 690kg/.68kgs =1000 fish/60 day cycle. For one person to bring 1000 per 60 days is not impossable to harvest could take a day and transport the next day.now looking at the size of a system you can bring 1000 fish in a single container, tank whatever. Taking into account the 10 month grow out time how would one go about bringing 1000fish/60 days?


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PostPosted: Oct 30th, '13, 20:02 
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I think you need an accountant or a financial business planner to work your numbers (wages, prcessing, pricing, packaging, ROI, cash flow, forecast, losses, SWOT evaluation etc...
I was only suggesting about efficiency of management utilising a staggered crop sequence methods with fish and plant to achieve a steady nutrient profile (bio-load depending)

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PostPosted: Oct 30th, '13, 21:45 
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A stedy Bio load profile, or balanceing the flutuation in nutrents concentration caused by fish harvesting with the requirements of plant needs....... just thinking out loud.

I would like to get a ruff picture of what is actually needed. Before i pay someone, see if it is even possable to pay for the labour to maintain a AP system with produce from said AP system.that mean we have to look at it from all angles, that is why I am welcoming all constructive critisum, bad ideas lead to good ideas and vise virca.

All jokes aside how many one man conventional farms are they? Even with tractors for plowing most farms are not 1 man ops, so if we are to archive 1 man AP farms the key will be automation. And a dependable output so we have to plan acourdingly. Dealing with stagering fish calls for more experience, I can tell you that using only media grow beds is the most earth friendly but not very business friendly, you need to a low for grater control of fish/plant ratio.

I also think we may need a tree or 2 in a comertial system, but that's for later discustion right now we looking at the fish side.


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PostPosted: Oct 31st, '13, 04:24 
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Seriously, this cant be healthy.
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:banghead:

You don't have to reinvent the wheel for this stuff.

Timmons et al covers all this. To a lesser extent so does Lekang but then Lekang has more on farming development and facility design.

If you don't want to employ peoples expertise then I suggest you add a cost accounting text book to your reading list such as:

http://www.amazon.com/Cost-Accounting-D ... accounting

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that is why I am welcoming all constructive critisum, bad ideas lead to good ideas and vise virca


You say this and so do others but when we offer suggestions you ignore them.

I'm not talking about your preference for containers. That is a disagreement on numbers. I've done my calcs it is not attractive to me here. You have done your calcs and you think its best for you. No problem.

What I'm talking about is you not taking the cash to buy crucial texts and the time to read and more importantly study them.

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PostPosted: Oct 31st, '13, 07:03 
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I am not reinventing the wheel I am just turning it, and putting together a plan for a system best suited to my vision. I am not saying these books are not foot tools to have in your box, and I will take them out when the time is right, my learning process is one where I have to vidualise a system down to every bolt before I brake out the big text books.

Can you vidualise the system I am talking about so far? Well for me I am starting to get a basic feel for the size required and how much automation I will have to magiver for fish to work, I have been thinking about how to batch the ish all day, I was thinking time should be my basic factor, moving and sorting the batches by weight every 60 days. So when I take out 1000 fish I must have 1000 that need 60 days till harvest. I would need 280/60=5 tanks, one for each 60 day phase of fishs growth and each tank will be stocked and maintained with the best enviourment for the stage of growth. Sorting the fish will be easy this way as you will have different size nets for each tank and net from the stage before all ways makeing sure to be moving the same amount of fish by weight and same amount of feed for fish. That means that the plant side would flutuate by the amount of waste produced by 1000 fish in there last 60 days of life.



5. Feeding Rate for Tilapia Fed 25% Protein Feed in Monoculture at 24°C

Fish Size (g) Amount of Feed (g/fish/day) (% of biomass)

5-10............. 0.5.............10-5
10-20........... 0.8.............. 8-4
20-50........... 1.6 ............8-3.2
50-70........... 2.0............. 4-2.9
70-100......... 2.4 ...........3.4-2.4
100-150....... 2.7........... 2.7-1.8
150-200 .......3.0........... 2.0-1.5
200-300 .......3.7 ...........1.9-1.2
300-400....... 4.5 ...........1.5-1.1
400-500....... 5.2........... 1.3-1.0
500-600 .......6.0........... 1.2-1.0

Source: Marek, 1975 (adapted).


From that I will Cal culate the rates for the tanks just now, would have to take into account spoilage.


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PostPosted: Oct 31st, '13, 07:58 
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Damian, I have a question.

I see you got your info out a publication of Marek from 1975, that's nearly 40 years ago. Wouldn't you think that in the mean time more recent research might have come up with other and maybe more relevant numbers to AP? Or was the research of Marek that conclusive that there was nothing to add to it anymore?

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PostPosted: Oct 31st, '13, 08:33 
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Just the first thing Google gave me, looks close enough, I know uvi got a nice chart out there as will, if you know of more revelevant info please by all means shear it with me, I apriciate it grately.

When sorting and grading the fish by weight if i can have a overhead support system that weighs at the same time and allows for a easy transition from tank to tank would be the way to go, my current thinking is a rail system with the tanks in a stragth line or a crane type system with the tanks in a circular faction, each tank will be slightly overstocked that means at each phase we will have to cull some fish, but what to do with the unwanted fish? My solution is a paranna tank. Thats the most automated way to return the fish Bio mass to aquious solution I can come up with not sure how to size that tank or if it should be concidered.


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PostPosted: Oct 31st, '13, 08:58 
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Damian wrote:
Just the first thing Google gave me, looks close enough, I know uvi got a nice chart out there as will, if you know of more revelevant info please by all means shear it with me, I apriciate it grately.

At the moment I couldn't help you there. I assumed actually that you did a thoroughly research to come to your present conclusions, and I hoped you could shed more light on the matter.

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