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PostPosted: Mar 11th, '14, 09:25 
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I read the article and found nothing within it you could not find here on BYAP.

It put a positive spin on AP and I appreciate that and share the writers awe of AP and what it can mean to
ordinary humans as a way to grow more with less.

I share the awe but for different reasons. I see AP as a way to leverage more freedom in a world of increasingly overbearing
Gov and Economic intrusion into my life and finances, I have zero desire to support or finance an intrusive centralized power structure that seems bent on herding me into the jaws of a waiting pack of wolves who've been empowered through legislation. Am I paranoid?..... maybe I am but ....it's only because I know how difficult it would be for me to resist using power over others for the benefit of myself and my compatriots and I don't believe anyone else could do it consistently or reliably either.

In one of the posts of this thread someone mentioned "Organic" certification.

AP getting "Organic " certification. Why should we want to label/market our produce under a banner with a lower quality standard we voluntarily achieve just to keep our fish alive.
Growing plants in an environment capable of sustaining fish should always be recognized and proclaimed as being superior to plain old "organic" produce.

Having said all that and some of it might have even been on topic.... I wish thie website well and hope it brings more into the AP fold.

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PostPosted: Mar 11th, '14, 11:48 
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telonline wrote:
I read the article and found nothing within it you could not find here on BYAP.

It put a positive spin on AP and I appreciate that and share the writers awe of AP and what it can mean to
ordinary humans as a way to grow more with less.

I share the awe but for different reasons. I see AP as a way to leverage more freedom in a world of increasingly overbearing
Gov and Economic intrusion into my life and finances, I have zero desire to support or finance an intrusive centralized power structure that seems bent on herding me into the jaws of a waiting pack of wolves who've been empowered through legislation. Am I paranoid?..... maybe I am but ....it's only because I know how difficult it would be for me to resist using power over others for the benefit of myself and my compatriots and I don't believe anyone else could do it consistently or reliably either.

In one of the posts of this thread someone mentioned "Organic" certification.

AP getting "Organic " certification. Why should we want to label/market our produce under a banner with a lower quality standard we voluntarily achieve just to keep our fish alive.
Growing plants in an environment capable of sustaining fish should always be recognized and proclaimed as being superior to plain old "organic" produce.

Having said all that and some of it might have even been on topic.... I wish thie website well and hope it brings more into the AP fold.



I know where you are coming from, of late i have been day dreaming about building a comfortable self sustainable home away from everything and completely off the grid and giving the world my middle finger. Life is just too damn stressful now days.

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PostPosted: Mar 11th, '14, 13:18 
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I would love to see Mr Nichols comment on this thread, especially as it has moved from hp bashing and outright dismissal to a more considered discussion .

If AP is lacking in controlled scientific trial data them we should all take this on board.

I have been in awe if Ryan's evidence based method of AP production and it will take someone like him (not specifically) without the need to keep important data as proprietary product ( absolutely not casting disparagement on Ryan, and fully understand the importance of keeping this private, And how much time has been given to help with almost every question in his thread).
It won't be long before AP has sufficient data in direct comparison to show where it is and is not superior to hydroponics. I am sure neither is optimal for all settings.
End of my 2 cents worth...


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PostPosted: Mar 11th, '14, 13:58 
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Seriously, this cant be healthy.
Seriously, this cant be healthy.
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Obelix wrote:
If AP is lacking in controlled scientific trial data them we should all take this on board.


Hang on...it is but so then is HP. Dr. Nicholls's point is not the lack of scientific investigation into AP but rather the lack of side by side trials. There is a a fair bit of data but we need lots more. Even if we get lots more that will not address one of Nicholls's points unless that investigation involves side by side comparisons (AP vs. HP).

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PostPosted: Mar 11th, '14, 16:18 
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Wasn't aware both ap and hp were missing the data, thnx for the correction


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PostPosted: Mar 11th, '14, 16:32 
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Seriously, this cant be healthy.
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Its not so much that the data is missing but lacking. HP has been well studied but there are still many things to learn.

AP has been well studied to for a method that has not yet been commercialised but obviously more needs to be done to get the same level of data to support production that HP currently has.

Very very little data to compare HP and AP directly but then that level of data is only necessary if you want to get into a definitive contest about which is better. In some cases (like water use) such studies are not really necessary to say that AP has an advantage over HP (like water use).

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PostPosted: Mar 11th, '14, 16:38 
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@Stuart
Dr Nichols ,if he is suggesting such a side by side tests, is asking for the impossible or fishing for a grant.

AP and Hydroponics are too distinct from each other for any meaningful side by side comparison. I would suggest the only meaningful information you could get would be compare nutritional value of the produce in gram for gram comparisons This forces you to ignore any consideration of the absolute top quality fish protein created using the AP methodology. That would make any comparison ridiculously frivolous after so much expended effort

The method of carrying nutrients to the plants by water is the only similarity there is nothing else to compare.

Side by side caparisons are for testing things like water temperature at delivery to the plants and measuring growth performance. You could take water from a common fish tank heat or cool the water, deliver to the GB and then measure the differences in plant performance just as an example.

If AP is a technology that can out perform Hydroponics as a commercial method of food production then it will become the pre-eminent of the two methods simply because it will produce a better return for investors. There is no reason the money guys can't chuck a few sheckles at this to measure the return if they just really have to know before investing the bulk of their funds.

Now there is a side by side I'd be interested in.
Lets give two different competitors, one AP and the other Hydroponics, an even number of sheckles and see who returns more money to the investors after a two or three year period.
The best return wins.

I fear I may seem to be asking for a long conversation about this but I'm really just offering my thoughts because if I was investing I would invest in AP over Hydroponics any day of the week.

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PostPosted: Mar 11th, '14, 17:08 
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Ohh but these are also changing times, people are getting sick of eating crap and are becoming more and more willing to open their purse to pay more for good fresh healthy food. I myself would consider produce from AP to be superior from that of Hydro (on the grounds of more natural) and therefore put a higher value on it but i would most certainly be a minority right now but would i be in 5-10 years?? In addition people are also looking more and more for environmental sustainability and once again people are willing to pay for it.
So i think a monetary comparison might be a waste of time as the markets are changing so rapidly. I admit i know little about hydro but you won't find hydo produce at my table as i have no idea whats in it, much the same as non organic produce, but thats the whole reason i got into AP in the first place and i am pretty sure that would be the reason many AP converts have converted to AP.
AP i believe is only just getting started, so many people who come to my place and my AP and never knew it existed are so excited about it, i really believe that one day AP in a home could be (should be) be as normal as a fridge or cooktop.

Oh and for those interested in studies, i cam across this site, they are asking for volunteers to enter their AP info online, usurers have access to everyones results, and so is one big public study. Although i had some issues with the site, hopefully they will be sorted rather quickly.

http://www.ourresearch.net

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PostPosted: Mar 11th, '14, 17:54 
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"Very very little data to compare HP and AP directly but then that level of data is only necessary if you want to get into a definitive contest about which is better. In some cases (like water use) such studies are not really necessary to say that AP has an advantage over HP (like water use)."

Aside from the emotive posts :roll: that statement Stuart, in a commercial situation, I do not accept (re the water usage). It is only the economics of the time that make water a disposable commodity, reusing water in an HP system is doable.
Of the two I prefer AP, but its got a long way to go. :)


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PostPosted: Mar 11th, '14, 18:08 
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Seriously, this cant be healthy.
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Sure its doable but there is a cost.

Standard practice is to dump solutions as they become contaminated with salts. The water can be recovered but that requires capital to purchase and install the necessary components and money to run them.

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PostPosted: Mar 11th, '14, 18:36 
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I apologise Stuart; that should have read "the other emotive posts". :)

I am also pissed ( pozzibly that zhould be pizzed off) with the spell checker telling me I should put a *frack* Z into every word with an S in it. :roll: :drunken:


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