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PostPosted: Mar 29th, '14, 12:39 
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Stuart Chignell wrote:
coachchris wrote:
sticks and stones... If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. Get where your coming from, but wouldn't be overly concerned about people(adults, not children) being bullied in text form. If they don't like it, they can always click the "off" button.


This is one of the attitudes that i want to change.

Psychological harm can be just as harmful if not more so than physical harm.

We do not need to consider extreme examples to see that allowing some negative forms of behaviour is to a groups disadvantage.

In fact when you say "if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen" you are saying to people that find the forms of behaviour that we are talking about unpleasant you are saying that you are not concerned about their feelings. You are also saying that you don't value their presence or contribution and that you would rather see them leave than discourage forms of behaviour that make them uncomfortable.

I would reply and say that if you think that it is acceptable to insult people and that personal abuse is an acceptable form of communication and debate then I would say that maybe you should consider leaving the kitchen if you are unwilling to consider the feelings of others and change your behaviour accordlingly.

I don't know about the legal situation in America but in Australia there are serious penalties that can be imposed on employers that allow workplace bullying. Now if such behaviours are unacceptable in the workplace why should they be acceptable in social groups?



You are correct in this post, however i strongly disagree with your "other people cant look after themselves" line, are you some sort of god that is better than normal people?

These are the sort of attitudes that generation after generation of older people fall into having which are constantly stripping the liberties of the next generation.

That law is meant to protect people in the workplace and as an extention, children at school. It is not really designed to stop people having an argument where names are called, nor to stop a group of people putting someone who is being an idiot in thier place (holiday thread).
Most people here are mature adults, those who arent expose themselves, they get away with it for a while, but are eventually forced to leave.


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PostPosted: Mar 29th, '14, 13:02 
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I think that Stuart is actually bullying others of which he thinks they are bullying him or others. If it's not bullying than I agree with EB, it comes very close to a form of oppression.

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PostPosted: Mar 29th, '14, 14:01 
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I've just finished reading this thread and although I've seen plenty of robust discussion

on this forum I can't really say I've seen any bullying as such.

However, the law will change soon and it will be OK to say things that other people would find insulting, offensive or bigoted.



Quote:
''People do have a right to be bigots, you know,'' Senator Brandis said.

"People have the right to say things that other people would find insulting, offensive or bigoted."



Now, this new proposed law raises a very interesting question

If a person is banned from a forum for offending and insulting behaviour

can that person then mount a legal case against the forum for suppressing his or her

freedom of speech?

I must admit when I first heard Senator Brandis's statement I thought I was dreaming as it

sounded completely wrong but the next day I agreed with him.

But the day after I thought he was wrong again. Today I have no idea where I stand as I can

argue for both sides.

But the outcome of this, is that people will have the right to offend and insult other people

even if Stuart doesn't agree.

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PostPosted: Mar 29th, '14, 15:09 
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Seriously, this cant be healthy.
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earthbound wrote:
Stuart, do you remember a few years back with some of the inter forum rivalry going on?


Oh yeah, and the way things are handled here is one of the reasons why I am a member here and not elsewhere.

Quote:
If you want to classify whats happened recently as bullying


No I don't but if it continues then it could be. I think that saying something before it develops into bullying is a good idea, why let something become a serious problem if it can be prevented?

Also I believe that a number of people feel that it is acceptable to insult people if they disagree with them. They may not be bullying one particular person but they apparently feel free to regularly insult, denigrate, belittle or libel people.

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PostPosted: Mar 29th, '14, 15:30 
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FAR OUT!!!... :shock: ... what'd I miss?

I gotta stop cherry pickin which threads I read.

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PostPosted: Mar 29th, '14, 15:59 
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Something else to consider is that there are many different socio economic groups partaking in discussions with one another, people who would not normally socialise but are drawn into an anonymous type social platform by a shared interest. Its not uncommon for a mate to call me *sigh* nor is it uncommon for me to call a mate a D*&k Head, both in jest and also when one feels another is out of line but we do so knowing it will never be taken to heart, but i am sure there are others on this forum who would take more of an offence to it than others. So its a game of give and take, some to try and tone it down a little and others to be more acceptable of others.
Me telling Domani to stop being a tosser is not being aggressive, its my way of expressing that he is somewhat out of line, asking to be deleted but continually antagonising another member. Sure i could have said it another way but then i would have been trying be something i am not.
Life is unfair and it will always be unfair, people need to understand this and accept it, the more we try and make things fair, the more we set people up for a hard fall when they out in the real world getting bullied on the street or at work.
I am an employer and am faced with the bullying laws and they are a pain in the ass, the other day i had an employee come to my office and complain he had been called a name, now i know these guys call each other names all the time but because he had the shits this day he made a complain because he knew i had to act on it and cause issues for the other guy. So now we have to play stupid games of warnings and written letters, its stupid. But i foo see a place for the laws when it does actually get outa control, but unfortunately implementing laws/rules is difficult as interpretation becomes the issue.
Ahh now i am wishing i deleted but I'm just going to hit submit.

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PostPosted: Mar 29th, '14, 17:28 
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Seriously, this cant be healthy.
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Yavimaya wrote:
however i strongly disagree with your "other people cant look after themselves" line, are you some sort of god that is better than normal people?


Fact some people just can't. Others can but instead of confronting the situation and dealing with it they choose to leave. If I have chosen not to join others or to leave them because of the culture that seemed to be accetable there. I decided that I didn't want to spend any time with those groups of people because of a range of behaviours that they tolerated. People can and will make similar assesments of our community here at BYAP. Some will decide to stay others will not. What will influence which people stay and which people go will be dependent on what behaviours that they see us engaged in. What things we tolerate and what things we condemn.

There are two issues that are woven in this discourse and that I raised in the first post. The first is what we as a community will and will not tolerate. The second is what we will do when a member steps out of what we will tolerate into what we will not. The second is irrelevant without a clearer understanding of the first. Since what we will tolerate as a community is not clear cut maybe we should limit of discussion, at least for the being, to what we will or will not tolerate.

To use a sporting analogy when a person starts insulting someone they stop playing the ball and start attacking their opponent.

Do we think it is acceptable behaviour to call someone a knob or tosser?
Do we think it is acceptable to call someone a liar or thief?

The former are labels that are applied to people based on our opinions of them. Depending on context they can be more or less serious insults.

The latter can be less subjective and more objective if they are based on evidence. For example it is legally acceptable to describe someone as a thief if you have evidence that they are indeed a thief.

Is it acceptable to have forum members trading insults backwards and forwards? What should we do if one member repetitively insults another or others?

Personally when I see such behaviour I am going to continue to say it is not cool.

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PostPosted: Mar 29th, '14, 17:40 
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kitacooch wrote:
Ahh now i am wishing i deleted but I'm just going to hit submit.


I'm glad you didn't because you made some good points.

I don't think we should try to be something we are not but sometimes we need to change what we are. Please believe me I am not saying you should but I look back at some of the things I did when I was younger and shudder. I'm very glad that there were people around me that pulled me up on behaviour that in some cases I didn't realise was offending people and in other cases I didn't care. I'm grateful to those people for when they held a mirror up to me and I didn't like what I saw so I changed.

So many of the OH&S and bullying laws that we have to deal with today are not the best to put it mildly but we have them today because of the communities reaction to collections of incidents that moved people to change the law. For example many of the workplace bullying laws exist because of the workplace culture that was causing people real harm both physical and psychological.

Like most things the pendulum may have swung too far but thats life. If Brandis has his way the pendulum will swing the other way.

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PostPosted: Mar 29th, '14, 17:46 
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Do we think it is acceptable behaviour to call someone a knob or tosser?
Do we think it is acceptable to call someone a liar or thief?


The first two yes, the last two no (unless its true and its fairly simple to see the difference). :)


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PostPosted: Mar 29th, '14, 19:08 
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Kitacooch. I would work for you mate.

When we're so concerned about what damage someone calling someone a name can cause, I'm sorry we're just going down the wrong path. This whole new concerns about the workplace and now filtering into everything else. I hope it doesn't just keep getting worse, and pretty soon, they'll be suspending the grade school kids for name calling. "Teacher, Johhny called me a poopy head." Teacher: "Johnny, your now suspended for 3 days." Personal accountability and responsibility will both be a thing of the past at our current rate. I've coached for over 2 decades, and have seen the results or our namby pamby, no one ever loses/we're all winners attitude. It's not pretty. We're raising a generation of self serving, weak, entitled kids who aren't willing to sacrifice or in many cases even work hard for rewards. Teachers are called out when they're kids don't get good grades, coaches when they don't start/play. You want to know whose to blame? Not the teachers, or the coaches. The parents. By raising their "precious babies" to believe that they are God's gift, and that they are incapable of anything less then perfection. Thankfully, there are still some parent's who continue to instill both work ethic and morals into their children. But, in this country at least, those are getting fewer and fewer.

I was raised where if you had a problem with someone, you dealt with it directly. If that meant getting uncomfortable, then so be it. If that meant being physical, because that was the only thing that person understood, that was OK too. Right or wrong, it still lets people know exactly where they stand. When they say the last great generation, of which my parents where a part of, they unfortunately, seem to be right. I understand the value of the Forum's integrity and the monetary investment, and if you have people continually assaulting people. But if someone calls someone a name or they get testy in an exchange, is it really a crime? God, I hope we're not coming to this. I have a good friend, who has 2 wonderful daughters, 1 of whom played CMF for me for 6 years. His kids are tough as nails, determined, gritty, and on their way to being very successful. He calls what is happening the Pus*ification of America". I only repeat the phrase because it is so very accurate.


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PostPosted: Mar 29th, '14, 20:10 
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Sleepe wrote:
Do we think it is acceptable behaviour to call someone a knob or tosser?
Do we think it is acceptable to call someone a liar or thief?


The first two yes, the last two no (unless its true and its fairly simple to see the difference). :)



I am not sure if I want to belong to a forum where i am called a knob or a tosser. Perhaps i am one of those sissy's that can't stand up to the harsh realities of live?

Unlike a work environment where there is often little protection for individuals that are bullied - in a forum people can easily escape being called tossers by exercising their democratic right to belong to another forum.

The decision that moderators of any forum have to take is what culture they want to create on the forum - and as a consequence who they attract to the forum.

The question that Stuart raised in his first post was "may be we need a public policy that warms people against bullying and a policy that lays out consequences". Rather than a bullying policy - perhaps we need Forum Rules to describe what is acceptable behavior on the forum.

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PostPosted: Mar 29th, '14, 20:17 
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The general rule here AFAIK is to not make things personal, and I'm pretty sure that is stated in the signup area somewhere for new subscribers. If you think someone's idea is not practical then say that, or have them prove it by doing it in the Real World. A lot of the traffic on here is hypothetical debate, rather than pictures of people's fish or plants that they've grown. Stay focused on the fish and plant pictures and you'll find a nice supporting community on here. In other words TL;DR (too long; didn't read)

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PostPosted: Mar 29th, '14, 20:18 
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Gabe wrote:
The decision that moderators of any forum have to take is what culture they want to create on the forum - and as a consequence who they attract to the forum


And if it acceptable to use an abusive tone on the forum without facing a reprimand of some sort then all you can expect is what seems to be happening more lately, and generally by the same people.

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PostPosted: Mar 29th, '14, 20:20 
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You can always report a post with the Report this Post (!) button, and/or PM a mod to tell them you think they went beyond the pale.

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PostPosted: Mar 29th, '14, 20:27 
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This is pretty silly. Who hasn't been bullied in life?

They are calling the current generation the " Waaaaa generation". Everything is expected to be given to them, they expect to be given well paid jobs and to make six figures right out of school. It's what they've been sold they're entire life...

When enough of the world wusses up, I will start my campaign of global domination. :)



I don't even know what threads are being discussed here, but for me it's about posting what you know and if someone wants to disagree with that....let them. Who cares? It's just costing them time and money... Do you think I'm out there pissing and moaning about a forum post while I'm working my farm? Nope! I'm making money and enjoying life... Doing what I love (which was the end goal).

A forum is kind of like a phone book. There is a bunch of none sense BS BUT... There are still helpful discussions happening regularly. Flip past the BS, get the goods.

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