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PostPosted: Sep 12th, '14, 01:58 
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+1 to what Chris said. You really want all of your flow to go through the fish tank, that is where the flow is needed the most. If there is too much flow through the fishtank, you can divert back to the sump with a spray bar to increase aeration. I think TCLynx's diagram is mostly to explain the way chop 2 works, but is not necessarily an endorsement of it. Unfortunately politics keeps a fundamentally flawed design around.

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PostPosted: Sep 12th, '14, 20:38 
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To me, the upper left of the fish tank looks to have a ball valve split off the water line. It appears to be going to both the indexing valve and the fish tank (at whatever volume set by that valve) at the same time with fish tank overflow going back into sump as well. So it looks to me there are two loops going there and the fish tank always has a circular flow of water going


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PostPosted: Sep 13th, '14, 02:39 
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Swflcpl ....... That valve needs pressure to switch ports so I don't think it could have a ball valve on it, it would need to seal off that part entirely to work, my newb guess.

Ron..... I agree about the fish flow. But I think I'm misunderstanding something on indexing valve systems that use a sump --they should require a second pump (FT & sump) to work. Even if they were overlapping heights the pressure from the FT wouldn't be enough to on/off that indexing valve. However, They don't require a sump if I don't mind the water flux of 11%-22% or 5.2"-10.5" of an IBC FT. Isn't that considered too much stress? Or would I just treat my FT fish capacity as if its always at its lowest FT volume (-22%)? I guess I could bury the IBC FT and deal with the fluctuation but I was hoping to leave the FT up on the concrete to the right side of my hole photoed above and there is no way I'm placing all these grow beds at 48"+ height. I am pretty sure I only have two choices A) bury the IBC FT and deal with fluctuation B) 2 pumps, in ground sump

Chris..... I would like to raise that FT above the GBs but how would water get from the sump back to the FT? It looks like TCLynx only has two diagrams of indexing valve systems. Both use GBs higher then FTs but the design with the sump doesn't add up to me. She only has one other diagram using an indexing valve. Attached here...
Attachment:
Indexing valve.JPG
Indexing valve.JPG [ 31.43 KiB | Viewed 4254 times ]


Why the indexing valve?
I'm pretty set on the index valve for reasons related to delaying the time between watering. I want to grow a range of vegetables that will root deeper and require more air like traditional terrestrial veg. The indexing valve allows for 4-8 ports with 1 at a time watering and delays between watering can be extended with the timer, in addition to waiting for the other beds to cycle before getting their next turn.

Without a sump........
This part could be entirely wrong, but according to my research and 3am math an IBC GB 42x48x12 = 78Gal liquid however, 40% is the media. So water displacement would be about 31.2 Gal per GB when entirely full. This means the FT without a sump at all would never fluctuate more then 62.4 Gal of its 275 Gal capacity. For a drop of 22% max. In inches that means the water level would never drop more then 10.5 inches.

*EXTRA CREDIT if anyone can tell me how much volume of expanded clay to fill a single GB of this size... better yet where to get it in Florida.

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PostPosted: Sep 13th, '14, 02:47 
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And Ron..... if I use a sump and two pump... I would love to put a DWC raft in that thing. I happen to have a preformed liner that may even make a nice fit for that plan, but the extra pump seems very taboo around this forum.

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PostPosted: Sep 13th, '14, 03:03 
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I cut the first GBs. I would like to find a way to conceal these or panel them better... They're plain old ugly!

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PostPosted: Sep 13th, '14, 10:00 
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An extra pump is not taboo per se, redundancy is a good thing. There are some indexing valves that can work at the low pressures you specified, they just use a solenoid to advance to the next port.

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PostPosted: Sep 13th, '14, 10:06 
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I think having 2 pumps can be a plus...if you can run it with only 1 if needed. Then the second is your backup. lol
If you size the pump correctly, you don't need 2 pumps, but you can use 2. If your using a sump, you can just raise the FT higher then your GB's and drain via SLO into GB's then into sump and repeat process. It you want to add a DWC bed, install a RFF before the DWC bed and then drain from RFF -> DWC-> SUMP. Put a float switch on the sump and you don't have to worry about running it dry.


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PostPosted: Sep 13th, '14, 11:25 
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I appreciate it! You guys keep giving me new subjects to research. Chris good point about redundancy in this case it would be dependent on both pumps, and I usually respect simplicity but I went ahead and bit the bullet and ordered an indexing valve from TCLynx's site today (Should have had her autograph it after reading so much of her work) and I'm going to see what I can do with it. I happen to have extra pumps to use for testing from other projects fountains and a microgreens/sprouting tower and I can play around on a smaller scale first before getting deep into a build. Worst case maybe I will offer to sell it to someone here or ebay for half price if its a total flop. I need to kill several weeks of time for the code office about the green house roof top anyway so if I can make that indexing valve work I will make a video and post it. I feel like I need that thing in my hands to really play with the pressure requirements before I can judge it.

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PostPosted: Sep 13th, '14, 14:29 
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Chris I read some about your suggestions RFF > DWC > SUMP system.

I found a great video example of what you're talking about here... this guy has media beds at the end of the DWC



Then it made me realize that the 2nd pump concept can still be redundant if the indexing valve pump is used to keep the DWC system in motion for the sake of the fish. Though due to on/off power cycles the indexing valve pump is likely to die the quickest. It would at least mean the fish and the DWC keep moving along and the sump volume would level higher while I scramble to find a new indexing pump asap.

This allows me to bend a lot of rules with gravity if I treat the indexing valve portion as independent and compensate for the volume in the sump. Most importantly to me GBs on the ground and FT up on the cement and sump hidden underground like Ron's killer patio design!

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PostPosted: Sep 15th, '14, 18:52 
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This morning I ordered the Quiet One Pro Pump 4000. TCLynx took the time to write an email explaining several various pumps she has tested with power cycling. But still she suggested a motorized swimming pool diversion valve to alternate between another valve or FT. This would require a method of actuating the lever and timing it. Considering the pump cost is $66 and her past experience was 1 year of 6 on/offs per hour before the impeller breaks. I would say that is a pretty impressive little pump and I will role the dice on replacing it once a year before attempting to build an actuating device... the swimming pool diversion valve she mentions is pretty simple and goes for about $35, but motorizing it sounds like a mad scientist project for next year.

The design will still be two pumps, the 2nd pump will route through the indexing valve to GBs and back to the sump bypassing the FT all together, allowing me to locate the FT higher then the GBs. Otherwise it will be based on coachchris's advice FT > RFF > DWC > Sump and without any media GBs on the DWC end.

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PostPosted: Sep 16th, '14, 23:42 
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I almost made an dumb mistake by purchasing 3M Marine adhesive sealant 5200 product. Glad I did not open it yet, turns out it would have been a big no no. I also for the first time realized the home page of this site has some really important information that I've been attempting to piece together from hand written notes from various posts and searches. I better watch out or I'm going to end up one of the bad examples.

Remember bulkhead/uniseal only and read the entire main page or you'll end up like the Pond_Sucker guy! :naughty:

I did pick up a cheap fill valve, looks like the same one from Ron's patio build. And started staining some wood to use around the IBC frames to dress things up a bit thanks to inspiration from FuzzyMonkey's build thread. I feel like no one makes much effort to make these systems look nice. Framing and paneling seems to be the easy method but fuzzy kept it minimal and clean. Ian did a great job paneling his but I felt like it looked especially costly and his carpentry skills would take me days to duplicate.

FuzzyMonkey http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=15712&start=150
Ian http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7450&start=105

As for the underground sump IBC, I guess the best way to wrap these is with tin roofing material? Or is it the thickest plastic wrap I can find? And I am absolutely using the mobile home anchors at least 2 to keep it from popping out if we get heavy rains.

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PostPosted: Sep 18th, '14, 06:05 
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I just returned from the code office where they determined I can not build (greenhouse) in the location I wanted to due to property line "setbacks" so its back to the drawing board for me. No big deal I can handle this (wipes away man tears). Most of what I built can be reused once oriented towards the back yard instead of the side of the house. The other amazing negative was their requirement of a draftsman quality blueprint in order to approve the permit even if the home owner intends to build the structure.
:upset:
I'm going to go listen to gangster rap about the code enforcement office holding down my AP project while I shoot up some zombies and plan my come back.

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PostPosted: Sep 18th, '14, 07:03 
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Too late now, but for future reference, it's sometimes better to beg forgiveness then ask permission. especially when dealing with City hall.

We are actually required to have our employees register and take an online course and then get a card that says they completed said course. This is required for every employee of every lawn maintenance, landscape contractor, tree service, and lawn spray company. Love the bumper sticker that says: "make welfare as hard to get as a building permit." lol
They regulate a businessman to death, then wonder why small businesses, which where the backbone of this country are dwindling.


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PostPosted: Sep 18th, '14, 17:32 
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When I went to city code office I told them construction had not been started yet (small fib) and that I was attempting to review the rules as a fairly young first time home owner while planning. So no fines no fees but I am taking this thing down before they come by to check because its an obvious violation (my ignorance) of the setback that you can see from the front of the house. Honestly I'm grateful to move this stupid roof now then after having an AP system in place! Still no plan for how to rebuild on a different corner of the house but it will come to me.

Lawyers rule the world and I started plotting my revenge but didn't get very far...
I read about agricultural exemptions (state specific, Florida is widely abused go figure). It looks like AP, microgreens, water culture, bee keeping, worm beds and even retail/wholesale veg/flower gardens can be maintained on a residential scale property.
http://www.landreport.com/2007/04/agricultural-exemptions-cut-your-taxes/
https://www.bcpao.us/mainhtml/agric.asp#spnMisc

I would think the proof of costs would be easy to show in equipment alone but it seems they want proof of an attempt to make a profit even if you have losses. This means either sell live or fresh fish, plants, or veg... so out of curiosity I found this state issued AP license Florida has now. Though hobby personal use is currently unregulated.
http://myfwc.com/license/aquaculture-certificate/aquaponics/

This too... seems like the state is working to encourage AP. How to register to sell fish to eat, live fish, and produce produced via AP to market here in Florida on the up and up. And keep in mind both these sites are funded by the state agricultural department.
http://www.freshfromflorida.com/content/download/38759/857351/DACS-P-01770_Aquaponic_fact_sheet.pdf

Personally I am more attracted to the idea of self sustaining food and hobby, but if they make laws to encourage people to buy hybrid cars then they should give incentives for food consumption even when its not brought to market and intended only for personal use. I guess the state and commercial agricultural people are taking AP seriously though. I doubt I will do more then send my friends home with some tomatoes or give a guided tour to my mom... but I figured this isn't too far from reality for some of you.

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PostPosted: Sep 18th, '14, 18:09 
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I have internet ADD... one search leads to another to another... I was looking into the regulations on who checks to make sure your agriculture products are safe and found this great video from 1987 by the FDA hahaha! Apparently I'm easily entertained. I need the mystery science theater guys for this. It reminds me of the old movie The Shinning ... want some ice cream Doc



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